General Chat

Know what you mean Uggers. You often find that the 'low' churches tend to concentrate on 'the word', but really, it should be a balance of word and sacrament to get the whole package.

I, too, am a little wary of the Alpha Course. I am sure it helps many who come in from 'cold' to understand the basics of the faith, but there is much more to the Gospel teachings isn't there? Much more depth.

We've used some good material from Anglican Renewal ministeries which each incumbent can mould to suit and lead his congregation.

Gosh, I know it's Sunday, but ............ :)

Thanks Ann and Sheila - I would think most people would agree that the actually non religious basics of treatment of others and behaviour are equal to the basics of any civilised society, religious or otherwise

I don't know really! In my view, if you are a Christian you should at least believe that Jesus was the son of God, and believe in the resurrection. There's some debate about transubstantation in different 'flavours' of Christianity, so not sure about that one. I can't swallow any of these, so choose to reject everything. However, I do see the Christian 'teachings' e.g. being neighbourly, not killing people etc. as good things, but they are not exclusive to Christianity - to me they are essential common sense groundings for decent, civilised living.

I have to agree with Suemaid here, there are parts of several religions that I can live with. I was brought up a Baptist and, looking back, I can see how narrow minded and self satisfied were many of the church members/followers, including my Mother. However, I still believe in the basic teachings, still find the baptismal service a deeply emotional one (although I have to admit to not having been to church for many years, still believe that adult baptism is correct and can't get my head around people making promises (that they often don't keep) on behalf of infants. Opposite to David I prefer evangilistic (although not 'happy clappy!') services and rather like the evangilistic C of E church services I have been to. I can't remember the wording of the original question David so forgive me if I have strayed off the subject.

Like Sue, I could live with some aspects of the Jewish faith and also Buddhism, I prefer simplicity in the churches I worship in when I do go. Having said that I love to go into the churches in the canaries which are RC of course mostly and look at the ornate carvings, pictures and beautiful stained glass, I don't think I could worship there though because I find the 'ornateness' (is that a word) distracting from the reason for being there. No doubt it would be the same in high churches in this country.

Ann
Glos

Thanks for that Rose - really interesting and I agree with the text. I find a lot of the content of Paul's letters ill at odds with the gospel teachings

Hello Cynthia:) I agree with what you're saying but although I'm not keen on the 'happy clappy' way the seems to be church is going, I only go to early communion so that doesn't affect me too much. When I say evangelical I hope I have the right word - my problems are more with the intense concentration on the Bible, and the whole Alpha Course mentality which I feel sits very ill at ease with the teachings of the Gospel.

I think I know where you're coming from Uggers. So many C of E churches seem to be going through this transitional stage at the moment. They realise that numbers are waning and want to do something that will 'bring people in' so they are tending to turn to going happy clappy thinking that that is what people want. I think they should be careful that they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.


I tend towards 'middle to high' and that is just as meaningful to me and to many others as is crashing around with guitars. I don't mind the occasional more relaxed service because I am involved with the children and they love to bounce, but I wouldn't want every Sunday to be so relaxed that life seems like a constant party - if you know what I mean.

I was brought up in the Salvation Army and then a Non-conformist church so I have experienced several forms of worship and have decided which suits my nature best - it's lasted me 40 years so I think I'll stick now!!

As to whether we 'pick & mix', yes I think we do. It's human nature to go for the things we like and ignore the things we don't but, unfortunately, life isn't that straightforward and sometimes we have to take the rough with the smooth. If we can struggle with something within our faith which makes us think a little or makes us a touch uncomfortable, and we get to grips with it, then maybe we are better prepared when life hits a low point.

Just my thoughts.

Maz, I am not sure how they got around that bit... but they certainly did... the vicar who Christened Princess Dynamo is/was female.... so it may be that she has interpreted things slightly differently, without moving away from the concept of the service. I must ask, and find out how they got around that bit... I know that Muslims DO believe in Jesus, but as a prophet, not as the Son of God.....lol... maybe these lovely young people had a looser and more flexible interpretation of what a *belief* really is!! My other granddaughter has the traditional two Godmothers and one Godfather... one Godmother is Catholic (and very traditional too) and takes her role very seriously and is great fun,... the other Godmother believes in the principle of *party, party, party* and is also great fun, plus also gives and cares.. granddaughter was Christened in a Cof E church. But the non-believer had to say that she did.... and did so without a qualm!!

Rose, that book sounds interesting... I remember that there were very many bits of the bible that I found very prejudiced against women... and Paul was the main interpreter in most of them... he is also the one who was the first advocate of celibacy in the priesthood..... I really didn't like him, as I felt he was a bit of a fanatic!! And I just knew he wouldn't have liked me, lol!!

I remember my hubby's grandfather saying to someone, once..... *the devil do believe (in Jesus) and he do tremble*........ maybe *one doesn't have to worship in order to believe*, is what was accepted!!

Love

Daff xxxxx

Yes, Maz - Uggers did say not to expect you to come on this thread:)

Sue xx

Beverley Nichols , "The Fool hath said" .

There is a very interesting chapter "Christ and sex" in which Nichols concludes that the teachings of the Christian church on the matter of sex is based on St Paul's words rather than Christ's . St Paul it was who said that

"For if the woman is not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it is a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered."

Nichol's response is "Would Christ have told the women of the world that they could not plead to God unless they first put a hat on?".

Would he ?

or is it possible as Nichols says that St Paul " had seen a woman's hair and found that it floated , like a devil's veil, between him and his vision of God". In other words the temptation of the physical over the divine.

I can't paraphrase the whole chapter, so if you can get a copy to read I think it is well worth it.

Man for the Sabbath or Sabbath for man ? :))

Rose xx

slight digression but Daff, we wanted a Jewish friend to be a godfather to our son, but weren't allowed as the wording of the service included the declaration "I believe in Jesus Christ". he is an honorary godfather instead!
Maz. XX

ps very interesting thread, but way too intellectual for me to add to :-))

I had a feeling when I started to read your thread, that you would turn out to be a member of the Church of England!

Personally, I feel that the CofE gives one a lot of leeway in matters of doctrine. One can go from Anglo-Catholic ism to something akin to non-conformity without having to alter your religious affiliation on your passport; and presumably without any long dark nights of the soul.

I agree, Rose and Daff. I wish religions would generally concentrate more on each others' similarities instead of differences.

If you choose to follow a particular religion, I don't think you should have to state that you believe everything you have been taught. Even if you say you do - does your heart say you do? It doesn't lie to you. A lot also depends on interpretation (and translation) of religious stories. Additionally, each religion has its own "internal rules"/"by-laws" (or whatever they call them) but how can you follow them, if you don't feel you agree with them? It still doesn't mean that you should change to another religion - but that, too, can be done. We grow up knowing only the religion our parents chose for us, but we are free to 'shop around' for another, if we so wish.

I believe you should go to church because you want to go - not because the clergy says you have to go. Let us not forget that those people are doing that work because they are so interested in it, they want to make it their life's work. They should not EXPECT their parishioners to feel the same as they do - but that doesn't mean that the people are wrong if they choose not to attend a church service. I believe that it is part of the clergy's job to make the service appealing so that people want to go.

I've always, without really thinking about it, believed in the afterlife. When my father was ill and dying I thought about it constantly and believed strongly over that time that he would be with his parents who he loved dearly and other loved ones. When I discussed this with my OH he said that he was glad that I could draw comfort from this faith but wondered if it was wishful thinking and being hopeful that I would one day see Dad again rather than faith. I believe it is faith but he gave me food for thought.

Sue xx

As my son once said " all the different religions walk their own road towards God, with high walls in between them, as the people on the roads come closer and closer to God, the walls get lower and lower till they are gone...and the people are walking the same road"

For some those walls are lower to start with perhaps? or at least have the odd brick missing to peep through and see that the 'others' look like us lol

Our family is a right old mix of religious beliefs, lol.... Hindi, Seikh, Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, Pagan (one of my sons) Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, Church of Wales...... oh, and Elim Four Square!! My granddaughter has 7 Godparents..... all major world religions represented, lol... the church she was Christened in has a wonderful attitude to Godliness, in my opinion....

Love

Daff xxxxxxx

I'm CofE but have always been attracted to certain elements of the RC church - but then I'm quite aware that what appeals to me are some of the more superficial and mystery parts and because the teachings are often so far removed from what I believe, I don't think I would ever consider converting.

Exactly, Sue:)

That counts in most aspects of life, Uggers, not just religion. We must continue to question our politians, ecologists, scientists, health professionals and religious leaders.

Sue xx

I was brought up in one religion Uggers, but I had a Mum who was interested in all sorts of alternative ideas, and was brought up to read about stuff and make up my own mind.......I think that is why I can quite happily go into a Catholic church and worship there, or mix with people of all faiths......

Wow....I agree with Daff too. Have I no mind of my own or is the glass or two of wine I had with dinner slowing me down.

Although I'm a Christian there are certain ceremonies in the Jewish religion that I find quite beautiful although I don't know much about the religion. I also like a lot of the teachings of Buddha and could quite happily live with Buddhists beliefs or at least some of them.

Sue xx