General Chat

I am taking my cousin to the cemetery today and the prospect brought to mind my brother David who didn't live to be my brother. Mother told me my father made him a little coffin and he was buried (perhaps unofficially) in a family grave 1930/31. I have long wanted to acknowledge him. My mother had to be sedated before anyone could take him from her. He was 121/2 llbs and perfectly formed. just too big to make a safe exit.
I don't expect it to be easy. Has anyone here been successful in such a quest ?

Regards
Norma

Hello
I have looked to try to find where my brother was buried as he was a stillbirth.My mum told me the graveyard and i know Erith Cemetery records babies who were buried alongside other acdults and did not have their own grave. However this grave yard did not seem to have these 'extra' records. Could that be right? I am wondering if I missed him but I don't remember seeing any at all.
I have come across lot sof stillbirths at Erith, tucked in with another person.

Firstly can I thank everyone who has replied and so quickly I've only been away a couple of .
hours..
My grandparents headstone shows only one grandaughter ( my cousins sister prior to her birth) and a great,great grandaughter also an infant. So maybe my parents couldn't afford the stone mason? there was plenty of room for his little coffin. I'm told there is a place in my town where I can get burial info so I'll be there tomorrow
The birth was at home and I had the same midwife!! who plunged me into a bucket of cold water when I didn't cry!! Home births were the norm I think . I discovered the letterings
on the stone were made of lead and applied ...I've NEVER seen that before, has anyone else ?
Regards
Norma
PS I found missing letters and did a repair job lol

I had a brother died at 12 hours in 1932. The vicor looked at the records and could find no trace of his burial although my Mum told me which churchyard he was in. The vicar said he was probably put in with someone else - so why no records? I have his birth and death certs!

Hi Phyllis

I'll be hopping mad if that happens to me! and I suppose it could. Sounds like it could just be a matter of disposal for the vicars of that time wonder what their obligations were. Did they have to ask permission of the relatives of the person to be buried ? I realise that without a formal funeral there would be no spade work. I was under the impression that my brother would be in the family grave but have to think now 'how could that have happened? the grave would have to be opened. Just not looking forward to my trip now. You have certificates Phyllis and still no wiser. Are local burial records the only source for this situation, hope someone can help you.
I will raise this issue at the office I am visiting.

Fingers crossed.
NORMA

Thanks Joan

Re the lead lettering... I just musn't visit enough cemeteries. I also wonder why would lead be used? perhaps it was less expensive. I'm ready for bed but... i can feel a Google cccoming on.
Regards
Norma

Lead Lettering Index

The lead lettering index (LLI) has been used by a number of workers to measure the amount of material removed usually from marble gravestones [1-4]. The index is assumes that the lead lettering often found inserted into gravestones was originally polished flush to the surface. Over time the marble has been eroded and left the lead lettering proud of the surface. It is assumed that the lead lettering has not been eroded to any significant degree over the exposure of the gravestone. Similar protrusion of lead can be found on building (Images 1-4) and have been used at St Paul's Cathedral, London to quantify weathering loss over a 250 year period [5]. The marble is assumed to have eroded at a relatively uniform rate across the whole gravestone. Measuring the height difference between the lead lettering and the marble surface indicates how much material has been removed since the gravestone was exposed. Repeated measurements across the gravestone (between 10 and 25) is assumed to provide a representative sample of height change. If the same letters are selected, for example the '1' in the date or the 'I' in died, then comparisons are possible between gravestones keeping the letter location approximately constant. As the marble erodes, however, the lettering itself can become loose and begin to peel off. Often the lettering is attached to the gravestone by small lead pegs and these become loose. The lead lettering begins to curl away from the surface and eventually drops out. The impression of the lettering, complete with peg holes, is often visible in old gravestones. This means that there is a limit to the age of gravestones that can be measured using this method. Once peeling of lettering begins the method becomes difficult to apply with any consistency.
No mention of cost included. Will take my camera next time and photograph the stone for posterity.

I have written about this before so apologies for repeating myself.

My mother told me I had an older brother who was stillborn, in a small village just outside Buckingham, he was premature too I think, but my Mum told me the midwife told my Dad to bury the body in the garden. I don't remember what she said happened after that - I assume Dad did just that, and both parents are dead now so I have no one to ask and Mum didn't tell me any dates altho I can narrow it down a bit as they met in Oct 1945, married Dec 28th 1945 (Dad was on demob in Norfolk and had to move back to his home village) and I was conceived in late October 1946 if I was full term as born July 1947, so my brother would have been born in 1946 . It would be awful if the baby's bones were dug up if people living in the cottage now did a lot of work in the garden.

When my daughter was born prematurely in 1974 and died after three days, I was in shock and went along with the funeral director who arranged things, he said parents didn't often go to 'these things' so I didn't go to her funeral, well burial, it probably wasn't a proper funeral. Afterwards when I wanted to know where she was buried (don't recall talking about cremation) I found she was buried in a common grave, one that had been used before, but worst of all, the plot could be used again for another baby and I couldn't put a marker on. It was an awful shock and I was lucky to find out so soon afterwards so was able to buy the burial rights for 75 years, and put a small headstone on there. There was at least a record of where she had been buried tho so that was a blessing, how awful if it hadn't been noted and she had been buried just any where with nothing noted.

I hope you can find out what you want to know Norma, and anyone seeking information on a baby's burial. Near my daughter's grave there are many similar ones, mostly unmarked, and sometimes I go there and see another one suddenly tidied after years of neglect. The most heartbreaking little message was on one, some years ago, it said 'Now we have found you we can name you' I came away in tears, not just for my Zoe but for that little one as well.

Lizx

I gave birth to twins in 1982. One daughter is alive and kicking but my other precious child was born dead.

We decided to allow the hospital to deal with the funeral as she was not breathing when she was born.

Thirteen years later I needed to find my child.

I visited the cemetery and found her. I knew roughly when she was buried and the cemetery allowed me to browse the burial records for that period in time. She was registered as 'daughter of......myself'. They directed me to her communal grave...a paupers grave. She is buried with 6 other people. Today, several years later she would have been interred in a children's plot in a separate part of the large municipal cemetery.
Hope this is of some help.

MY elder sister had a miscarriage at 5 months in hospital 1956. they were devastated at the time and were told dont worry we will deal with it ,she was told it was a boy. Some years later she worried what what had happened to her son and contacted the hospital . she was told that most probably he was in the coffin of an adult that was being collected by a funeral director at the time but no records were ever found , she was assured that the baby wouldn't have been incinerated by the hospital BUT always regretted knowing not what happened to their son

Hi everone on this thread.. Your stories are absolutely heartbreaking. At a time when a mother & father too is most vulnerable these major decisions were made often under the influence of people who they feel they should trust.

Those parents didn't suffer in vain totally. Because of their stories, pressure was put on relevant authorities and midwives to LISTEN and change things.

As a student nurse on night duty ( 50's) I couldn't let the porters place a dead infant on a trolley and I carried them to to the mortuary as a substitute mother and hated leaving them.Night Sister used to scold me but gav e up eventually.
I was regarded as too sentimental which was not handicap for me.. I thought everyone would feel the same.

Burial services couldn't find evidence of my brother's burial. I tried the town where my parents
were married but no luck. Have ordered a form from GROto order a certificate Maybe then I will know more.



Norma

Norma, how lovely to think you gave those little babies some dignity at the end, I hope someone treated my baby daughter with the same loving care.

Thanks for being sentimental and caring.

Lizxx

Norma, what a lovely lady you are.

The very best of luck to you in your search

Beejay xx

Thanks for the last two comments. Many must have felt as I did. Luckily my father brought me up to stand up for what I believed in and not to live with a challenged conscience. Which has brought me in dispute with authority figures throughout my life, I just got more effective.
Jt filling or trying to fill in the application form for a Still Birth Certificate and realised that I never KNEW when my brother was born or even where... just made certain assumptions i.e sometime between my parents marriage and my birth. I rang & they said to write possibilty where there was doubt.
Hope I can I c

Good morning Norma, you will let us know how you get on won't you

Bee

Of course. It's a matter of waiting to find out what the GRO come up with and if I had enough information for them
Norma

First all i hope you ladys who are looking for your babies that you might find them,my daughter gave birth to full term little girl but she was born died,i buried her with my mum and dad so i no shes safe with family

Hi Dutch
Thankyou for your good wishes.
It''s good to hear your story, it must mean so much to you and your family that you all know where your little grandaughter rests. My brother was also full term and perfectly formed. Without an emergency caesarian section,( he was twelve and a half pounds) he just couldn't make his exit
safely. So much for eating for two, the advice in those days.
Hope I will be back with good news soon
Norma

Good morning to everyone on this thread.
Today my brother's Still Birth Certificate arrived
born the 8th May 1931. It feels so surreal, he is no longer just a memory of others. David's death was only registered a month later and I can't imagine the grief of my parents. Now I maybe able to find where he lies. Thank you all for your support and encouragement.

Norma'

Hello Norma
Have just read your thread for the first time , I'm so glad you have now finally received the certificate for your brother David.
You sound a lovely caring person,and to have carried still born babies when you were a student nurse took imo great courage!too sentimental or not.

I remember when I was on a maternity ward in the early 1960s another young woman (who had been in the bed next to me) had a stillborn child,and I often thought afterwards why they had kept her still on the ward surrounded by happy mothers? but as Piglets Pal has said that was then and i'm pleased things are 'done' differently now.

Mau xx