General Chat

Here you go, Canuckistanians.

http://www.projectdemocracy.ca

Insert postal code, get wholly unbiased recommendation about who best to vote for to defeat the local Harper candidate.

Remember, we elect *locally*. National polls say nothing about local contests.

If you want the Liberals to beat the Conservatives *but the strongest anti-Conservative candidate locally is the NDP* then you don't vote Liberal. And vice versa.

My riding is considered a safe NDP riding, so it recommends I vote my conscience, since there is little danger of splitting the anti-Conservative vote in a way that would allow the Conservative to win.

I always vote my conscience! I'm just very glad it isn't telling me I have to vote Liberal. ;)

Janey


I first worked on an election in 1964 in England, but arrived in Canada just a couple of months after Trudeau was elected.

lol!


no way will I bite your head off, C


it often comes down to the strategic vote


or who is the best of a bad lot, and not a Tory .... at least with this government


Although having said that, we had another super riding man many years ago ........ John Fraser, a Tory!



and I think that is where I often base my choice ... who is the best person for the riding.



sylvia

Now I didn't say it wasn't better to vote for a dead pig than to vote for any Conservative candidate in any riding! Dosangh, any Liberal, any NDPer, anybody the Bloc is running, anybody who appears to have the best chance of defeating any Conservative candidate.

I'd vote Liberal if I lived in a Liberal or Liberal-leaning riding with no NDP hope. I'd hold my nose and take Gravol, but I'd do it. I voted PC to vote against Trudeau in the early 70s, after working on the NDP campaign but knowing the riding was not going NDP. I would simply have no illusions about what I was doing, particularly if my local Liberal candidate were an opportunist turncoat. ;)

The issue is not whether the NDP is going to form the next government. The issue is twofold: (a) whether the Liberals will scare people into voting Liberal in ridings where there is a viable NDP candidate they would otherwise vote for (as they did in 88) (and possibly split the vote and enable the Conservative to win, a real possibility in some ridings), and (b) that a Liberal minority government with as many NDP seats as possible is the best available option for the country given that the NDP is unlikely to win enough seats to form a government. Although even the ghastly Andrew Coyne and whatsername on the CBC last night were talking about the NDP becoming the main threat to the Conservatives after the debates.

The 68 federal election was the first one I worked on. So ... I guess we tie. ;)

I bow to all of you as my knowledge is not as well rounded as you all on the parties over here !!
What I do know is though that there is no way an NDP will ever get elected in my riding, that's just the way it is sorry ! For all their problems at least the Green party know they don't have a cat in h*ll's chance of forming the Government and said as much +0)....no I'm not voting for them don't bite my head off please.

eh up


I came in 1968, when Trudeau was in power .... so I've lived through several Liberal governments

and some rotten Tories



and yes, I do know the history of universal health care, pensions etc etc


Both OH and I have made a point of learning about and understanding the politics of any country in which we have lived.


I've probably known about the political history of this country almost as long as you have!



Problem is ................. much as I might like the NDP, they don't have a cat in h*ll's chance of becoming the government federally

.... and they never run a decent candidate in my riding, so I'm not even tempted to vote for them, federally at least.

To me, it is far better to vote for Ujjal, than to vote for the Conservative candidate ............ especially one who is in there on an agenda, an ethnic agenda.


We at least have had a couple of NDP governments provincially, and, god willing, we might get another fairly soon.

Well, S, I guess you've never seen a Liberal government in action.

When there's a Paul Martin or even a Jean Chrétien on the front bench, it really doesn't matter how many Dosanghs they have for window dressing.

The Liberal Party is a right-wing party that dances the "liberal" dance to charm the more foolish in the electorate, but without an NDP partner shoving it around the dance floor, does nothing but toadie to its corporate friends.

You can look up how we *got* universal health care, if it's before your time.

Started by the NDP, Tommy Douglas of course, in Saskatchewan, and didn't go national until there was a *minority* Liberal govt with the NDP demanding it in order to maintain confidence.

Ditto the Canada Pension Plan -- the Liberals got their name on it, but the NDP got it through.



http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0005326

The balance of power in minority parliaments in Canada has been held by reformist parties of the broad left (Progressives, CCF, NDP) or, occasionally, by a regional French Canadian party (Créditistes) - parties that have feared and distrusted the intentions of the Conservative Party, which was, in any event, unable to compromise its policy positions to accommodate them.

The Liberal Party, however, has always been willing to accommodate them, at least minimally. For example, the King government's ability to retain the confidence of the Commons from 1921 to 1925 depended partly on the strong anti-tariff policy favoured by the Progressive Party.
>>> The Pearson minority governments of 1963-65 and 1965-68 won over the NDP with legislation that included a considerable expansion of social programs.
>>> The Trudeau minority government of 1972-74 wooed the NDP by enacting, or by committing itself to enact, regulation of election expenses and the establishment of Petro-Canada and the Foreign Investment Review Agency.
>>> The minority government of Paul Martin (2004-06) clung to power with the support of the NDP, in part by amending its proposed budget to increase spending on social programs and defer tax cuts for large corporations.

In contrast, immediately following the election of the Conservative minority government of 1979-80, PM Joe Clark announced he would govern as if he had a majority. ...

Though politicians frequently claim that their parties need a majority to carry out their program, this has seldom been true. Though never holding a majority, the Pearson governments [Liberal minorities with NDP support] were among the most productive in Canadian history, enacting
>>>> universal health care, the Canadian Pension Plan, the Canada Assistance Plan, and the Canada Student Loans Plan,
as well as unifying the armed forces and creating a new national flag.




Liberals and the Liberal Party really do not do good things because they're good people. They're smarter right-wingers than the Conservatives, is all. They're especially smart at hoodwinking the electorate, year after year after year. And the Dosanghs of the party are one of the tools they use for pulling that off.

I respect some of them. Warren Allmand would never have got elected for the NDP in Quebec (he might today). He did wield a little influence in Liberal governments. His choice was respectable.

Dosangh = opportunist, full stop. A clever, jolly one, of course.

he's certainly a policy wonk ........ should be in the back rooms plotting

I rest my case.......lol



Cx

Cynthia

I have seen loads of photos of Harper over the last several years of him talking to someone


he shakes their hands ................. but if you look closely, his eyes are almost never in contact with the other person's eyes. They're almost always directed towards the ear, or even way away from the person

He also comes over as completely uncomfortable with others, maybe even uncomfortable in his own skin.





Sorry Janey ........ I disagree with you about Ujjal.

I think he is one of the best people around, and his commitment to his constituents is almost unparalleled in my experience. We have had some excellent federal and provincial representatives from this ward, and he is definitely well up there.

He does support universal health care, social programs, and all the things that he did when he was the NDP Premier of BC



I see the NDP as on a spectrum from the far left and moving to a point where they overlap with the more leftist Liberals.


Just as the Liberals cover a spectrum from the leftish to overlapping with the left-leaning Conservatives, who then spread over to the ultra right wing


In fact, I very often see very little practical difference between the parties when you look at what they do as against what they would like to do!





Oh yes, we have the eelction of the new provincial NDP Leader on Sunday



and Liberal Christy Clark has called a by-election for May 11 so she, as new Premier, can get a seat in the Legislature.


Now THERE is a coalition ...................... Liberal / Conservative (with a few Reformers).

Harper can outstare a camera any day....not sure on people though.
I liked his photo op this lunch time, was the p'd off old lady in the background with her arms crossed planted there to make us think he isn't really planting people in the background ?!!

Hmmmmm..........does not like taking responsibility.......well, that ticks another box.

Many of those on the spectrum also deny any wrongdoing even though they are blatantly at fault.


Just tell me that the said gentlemen cannot maintain eye contact and we'll clinch the deal...... ;)


Cx

Harper is a total control freak -- OCD, maybe. ;)

Funny thing is that in spite of being satisfied only with total control of everything and everybody around him, he then refuses to take responsibility for anything. The kid thrown out of the campaign rally (for putting a picture of her with the Liberal leader, from the rally she'd attended the week before, on her FB page), that was a staffer's fault. The whole Helena Guergis scandal, no comment. The costs of all his abominable criminal justice bills, not telling. Accountability and transparency, the watchwords on which he campaigned for office. Our collective bums.

All I could think of every time Iggy hit him in the debates with that "a man who will shut down anything he can't control" line was Leonard Cohen's:

Yes you who must leave everything that you cannot control.
It begins with your family, but soon it comes around to your soul.

If we show him he can't control it all, will he leave??? ;)


What is a "moderate" NDPer, I wonder? An opportunist using the party to get ahead? I think so. WTH would an "extremist" NDPer be? Somebody not prepared to compromise on things like universal health care and social programs, somebody like me? An extremist social democrat ... hmm. ;)

There's another example of one of those "moderate" NDPers in this election. The former candidate who withdrew ... to support Stephen Harper. "Opportunist" is really the only appropriate word.


C, please don't fall into step with Harper and his yammering about "bickering" in the House. Trying to stop him from getting his ugly way with the country really isn't acting like kids who are spoilt rotten and not getting their own way. The sad thing is that they didn't go through with stopping him once he deigned to allow Parliament to sit again two years ago.

Harper being Autisitc...now there's a thought.
Would that count for him closing Parliament every time it got a bit dicey ?!
I loved the creepy stare comments, it so sums him up that and plastic.
Unfortunately I think we'll have the election and basically be in the exact same position we were in before except a lot poorer.
All main parties acting like kids who are spoilt rotten and not getting their own way !!
My youngest is off to Ottawa next week for a school trip....he's the sort that if the camera crew ask him about the election he'll say something to make us all laugh....oh please god get a camera crew on Parliament hill next week talking to school kids =0)
Caroline

Taking some random quotes from the above:


Giant dorkish looking person staring fixedly at the camera and wiggling his hands.


See the cold and horrible Stephen Harper in action. ;)


Apparently tweeters found Mr Harper's "stare" very creepy!


Harper's sounded just like Harper did, bland and awkward and dull


One question why would you want the rest of the world to know how wooden Harper is, does his hair EVER move for goodness sake ? I love it a few years back for a photo op they had him walk the kids to school, he was like a fish out of water...no idea what to do =0)



Now, until Janey starts on one of her political rants, I have absolutely no knowledge of any of the above politicians but, looking at the quotes I have picked out, I do wonder if the said Mr. Harper is on the autistic spectrum. Some of the aspects you have all mentioned would fit in with that thought. Would you agree?


I often thought that Gordon Brown was on it......and I DO know who he is, much as I dislike politics :))





Cx

Hi Caroline!


Didn't look at the French debate for more than a couple ...... but it sounds as if Harper was the same as he had been the night before!

I did see a photo somewhere taken from behind Harper's head during the English debate .......... you saw his ear and then Duceppe through Harper's spectacle lens

...... and the little bit of his hair that you could see looked sprayed in place, but also had little bits that needed trimming :)))


Ujjal's not a turncoat!

He was NDP Premier of BC ............ but a very moderate NDP'er. Then he ran for the Liberals federally. I would say that he is on the edge of the NDP that meets the edge of the Liberals!


Remember BC politics are like no other in the rest of Canada.

Our "Liberal" government is actually a coalition of true-blue Tories and Liberals put together by Gordon Campbell, fo drunk driving in Hawaii fame!


You're not thinking of that business man who ran for the Liberals then immediately crossed over to the Conservatives and got a Cabinet post are you? He didn't run in 2008 ...... he'd have been lynched if he had! Mind you, he couldn't see what he had down wrong ........... he said in business that it was common to move to a rival firm if that fit you better!





UPDATE on hockey .............. Montreal beat Bruins 2-0 :))))

If it weren't for the little inner voice telling him to wiggle his hands in front of him occasionally, he would obviously have been one of those cartoon characters from our youth (well, mine, anyhow!) whose lips were the only thing that moved. ;)

Yup, I get to vote the country's conscience and have it take!

Remember Paul Martin going to Canadian Tire with Rick Mercer? Even he wasn't as much of a cigar store Indian as Steve.

Oh my goodness Janey you're in one of the few NDP strong holds !! For sure you're not in the great TO then =0) Nor Quebec!
Not watching the playoffs as Maple leafs not in it....okay I'm not surprised they're not in it but for a moment there....just a moment they almost.....I know straws...clutching.....
One question why would you want the rest of the world to know how wooden Harper is, does his hair EVER move for goodness sake ? I love it a few years back for a photo op they had him walk the kids to school, he was like a fish out of water...no idea what to do =0)
Caroline

Hold on, your MP is Dosangh -- the vile opportunist turncoat?? How could anybody respect that one?

But I'd hold my nose and take Gravol and vote for him if he was the only one likely to beat someone running on the right-wing ideology-driven agenda.

Thanks for the hockey score. I would actually never have known otherwise. ;)

Harper in the French-language debate last night was indeed creepy! Giant dorkish looking person staring fixedly at the camera and wiggling his hands.

He was under two handicaps for that one. The first, as No.1 kept echoing the previous night, the little inner voice whispering to him: "Inside voice, Steve, inside voice." And having to do it in French. Made him double wooden.

I watched part in French w/o the translation. Jack's is the most fluent and natural-sounding. Iggy's is studiously correct, but he sounds like he majored in French at an English university. Harper's is not adequate to convey anything but the facts, ma'am.

It's so unfortunate about Gilles' English. He speaks it relatively well -- but in that strange nasal whine he takes on in English that he sounds nothing like in French, and with the bizarre emPHAses he puts on words. However it was he said "demagoguery", I think I'm one of 10 people in the country who knew what it was! (I love how the Bloc constantly talks about demagoguery and the right-wing ideology-driven agenda, in the House.) In French he's hugely witty and quick, and we all deserve the benefit of what he's saying, since nobody else says it.

What I loved about the French debate was the English interpreters (except for the one Jack got stuck with, with the growly Scottish accent). Harper's sounded just like Harper did, bland and awkward and dull. The two who did Iggy and Gilles were fantastic, arguing back and forth with each other and sounding just like it was them doing the talking. I actually know those two from contact with conference interpreters when I worked in the gum'mint years ago, and I always like hearing them. ;)