General Chat

I had a cousin who passed the 11 plus, but then was not allowed to go to the grammar school because her older sister was already there and her parents could not afford to have 2 children at "the grammar".

M was bitter about that until the day she died at almost 90! She spent most of her time trying to outdo that sister.

What M did do instead was play on the fact that she had been sent to stay with a maternal aunt at the age of about 3 when her mother had premature twins, the last of her 6 children and needing a lot of care. M was the most difficult of the children and I think her parents jumped at the chance of her being away for a while. Aunt only had one child, a son, and seemingly treated M very well, even sending her to elocution lessons with the son.

After that, M made sure she always talked with a very different accent than her 5 siblings, and made it sound as though she had spent years with the aunt ............... nope, her eldest but one sister took great joy in telling me it was less than 3 months!


I also passed the 11-plus, and went on to university ..... which is when I began to get that strange reaction.

I was the first girl in our village to go to university .............. every time I went back home, the elderly b*s in the village would take every opportunity to stand to one side of me and eye me up and down. After all, no single girl ever went away for any good reason!

There was a big deal made of the 11+ exam, which was quite a cruel thing to impose upon young children. You 'passed' it or you'failed' it. So, at the age of eleven, for the first time in your life maybe, you were a failure.

I did not want to go to grammar school and was hoping to go to secondary modern but my mind went the way they wanted. It would have been secondary modern had there been more emphasis on maths I am sure.

I was recently “accused” of having been to private school when I answered a couple of quiz questions that stumped the rest of my team. The comment was on the lines of “Well, you would know the answers. You went to private school. We didn’t”. Actually, I didn’t either. Passed the 11 Plus and went to a state grammar school

The people to admire are those like my OH who has achieved an enormous amount in spite of a terrible start educationally.

Actually, Rollo, you didn't have to live within the New Forest Boundary to go to Brockenhurst.

I, and 'rellies' went to either Brockenhurst or Totton - I know where they/I lived and which school they/I went to.

Totton is not 'Well outside the New Forest; - it is actually considered within the New Forest District, and it's UK parliament constituency is New Forest East.

Oh - and the school in Totton was both a Grammar School AND college up until 1973 - which was when it ceased being a Grammar School.
It didn't suddenly 'change' and the children transported elsewhere - it was a gradual closure - as with all Grammar Schools that became Colleges.

Both Cadnam and Ower ARE in the New Forest - Google a map of the New Forest - see the green bit? That's the New Forest.
Fordingbridge is within the New Forest District - and before the area became a 'National Park' was part of the New Forest.

Oh - and I (if I am MW), never said " Forest schools had a very rural character excepting the industrial strip along Southampton Water."

I asked you when you met Dr Wood.

I guess we may all have the thought at times, that if we'd gone to this school rather than that, ( or stayed in one longer than a few years lol) or had some opportunity that someone else had, we might have 'done better' with our lives? Maybe that's what underlies the attitude to grammar school pupils as described?

It's easier to blame someone or something than accept your own failings maybe, lolol eg I could say 'if only I'd stayed at that school, gone on to Uni, I'd be a librarian now'... just in time for the wholesale closing of the libraries .. one never knows how things would have turned out, 'if only...' :-)

Have to admit to not staying on for 'A' levels - we moved to Southampton (or at least my sister and I did - my parents went to Saudi!) just as I was about to take my GCE 'O' levels. I managed to stay on to take them, but if I'd have taken 'A' levels, I would have had to have gone to a College in Southampton - and didn't fancy that :-(
Mother enrolled me onto a Norland Nanny course instead - yes, I have a certificate to prove I'm one! Never took it up - detested some of their 'principles' at the time - like 'children should never get dirty'.

I eventually took - and got - a degree aged 40 - still with no 'A' levels (and no access course either). :-D :-D

Vera, I agree with regarding those who 'made it' despite a terrible start.
My elder brother and ex are dyslexic - nothing was done about it years ago.
My elder brother couldn't read until he was 8.
He went on to do a fitter/turner apprenticeship - then took his 'O' levels, and got accepted into Art College.
He's been a renowned Bonsai Potter for the past 40 years.

When I took my degree, (after my divorce) my ex was teaching special needs adults at an agricultural college. He was very good - apparently the first lecturer to include Maths and English in his teaching.
Not to be outdone by me, (he told me this :-D ) he then took a maths degree - and went on to get a Masters!!

Our eldest is also dyslexic, but is now a Maternity Health worker - she'd love to become a midwife, but can't afford the fees.
We watched her teach herself to read, aged 3, by following the words in a Nursery Rhyme book that was regularly read to her (dyslexics tend to look at word patterns/shapes - phonics are useless to them), also she was used to her dad asking me how to spell words, so not being able to spell was no 'disgrace' to her, it was normal - and she carried a dictionary wherever she went! :-S :-S

Oh yes - and she's a wee bit of a 'grammar nazi' now (especially to her parents) - her spelling and punctuation are excellent!

I attended the same girls Grammar as my sister, our brothers all attended the same boys Grammar.

The only stigma I experienced was the micky taking and being called 'greenfly' which was prompted by the colour of my uniform.

Also HAVING to wear our berets outside of the school gates made us a bit of a target...lolol

I will say, again, I am still in favour of grammar, technical and secondary modern schools because that system offered the majority of children an education that both suited their abilities and offered employable skills when they left school.

Sue, I'm in favour of them too - but they never built enough Technical schools, and, when we took the 11+ there wasn't private tuition and cramming leading up to it!!
Well, definitely not in my case :-0
Expecting every child to be academic, is just plain cruel, and with reading only involving phonics,, many children will be unable to read - and then have a further 5 years of hell at Secondary School, not really being able to cope.

At the time I was there, Mevagissey school resembled a 'Dame School'.
The headmistress had taken over when her husband (the late headmaster) had died, and she'd employed her 'best mate', Miss Franklin (my teacher) as her deputy.
We sang 'Trelawney' every morning.
When the weather was nice, we went out for walks in the morning, and drew flowers/boats in the afternoon - but this included comprehension and maths, and I suppose geography and history - write something about what we saw, the land, and the nearest tin mine!! :-D :-D :-D

We sang the fisherman's song (When lamps are lighted) before leaving in the afternoon.
It was a joy to be there :-D
The other nice school, of the six I attended, was Horrabridge Primary school (now a B&B), in Devon.

We still have grammar schools in this area and to be able to attend. pupils have to pass 'The Kent Test'...... rather like the old 11 plus exam.
If a successful level is achieved, the individual schools then hold further school entrance tests for prospective candidates.

Some parents enrol their son / daughter in cramming classes, in the hope of them attaining high marks, but once the children are at the schools deemed most suitable for their on-going education, there doesn't seem to be a stigma regarding which school one attends. I do think there used to be, but our nearest secondary school now has such a good reputation, it is the school of choice for many.

Education can be a lifelong process.
My OH went to 16 schools, due to his father's constant moves and the family's consequent up rooting, but he valued education and studied and gained a degree later in life.

I've known well educated people, who just didn't seem to have been in the queue, when common sense was handed out.
Learning is one thing, how it's used can be another........................

New Forest boundary
lo-res
http://www.wildnewforest.co.uk/new-forest/
hi-res
http://www.newforestnpa.gov.uk/downloads/file/504/national_park_boundary_map

Even the Sir John Barleycorn PH at Cadnam is just outside the Forest boundary.

There are no wild boar in the New Forest though pigs are let out to graze on the acorns every year. They are not grockle friendly. There are a lot of wild boar in the Forest of Dean and a small number in the Sussex Weald which have escaped.

What has the wildlife of the New Forest got to do with Grammar schools :-S :-S :-S :-S

Although, of course, I was hoping that this thread would develop into one about the New Forest and who could find out most about it on Google, my real point was that , even after all these years, the 11+ still has an effect.

Sorry LaGooner.
I mentioned passing the 11+ in Cornwall, then moving to the New Forest - and we all got some romantic view of an outsider to Brockenhurst School - because everyone needs to know (apparently) that Rollo met the head of that school :-S

Oh yes, and (of course) I don't know the catchment areas of the schools me, my sister, my sister in law and her sister attended - which was how it worked (catchment areas) when we went to school. Apparently, Rollo knows best.
I would like to add, boundaries are one thing, historical belief in where you live, another - and catchment areas - totally different!!

*Memo to self* - NEVER mention the New Forest, as you'll be 'mansplained'
Remember you NEVER lived there, neither did your grandparents, ancestors, your brother, sister in law, nephew 'driver' and quite a few friends DON'T live there.
You (nor anyone else) has EVER seen any New Forest Wildlife/plants/bomb craters - and if you have you didn't really notice, as you live in a Council house and are therefore incapable of appreciating anything aesthetically .
Your degree in Education is also worthless, especially when it comes to knowing anything at all about Education - especially your own. :-\

Thank you Rollo, re boar, my mistake :-) I knew they were in one Forest or another I'd not been to. Lol I'd know one if it was charging towards me though :-)

NB I must remember to stick to topic.

For all practical purposes the 11+ exam was a dead letter in most of England and Wales by 1966. There were (and are) a few exceptions. Thus pretty well all of the current working population will have been educated under the state comprehensive system such that any agrro related to the 11+ is impossible.

What people no longer in the labour market may or may not think is a matter of curiosity for some but relevance for nobody.

The 11+ itself is and was one of the daftest ways of organising an education system that could possibly be thought of, socially divisive and educationally mad. At least a half of the economic falure of the UK 1950-1980 can be laid at the door of this stupid exam.

There is very little divergence of intelligence in people. There are many many different sorts of intelligence but it is absurd to say that one is better than another. The mistake that the UK makes with education is to force round children into square holes. One may have thought that the failure of the Beatles at school and great success at work may have proved the fallacy of the approach but no, it goes on.

The consequences of the failure of large chunks of the British education system towards its children have been papered over by the recruitment of highly skilled people from the EU. As they respond to brexit by leaving the UK is going to face some difficult problems.

Oo fancy!

There's a farm at Bramshaw that rears Boar - though they're not loose!

http://www.newforestnpa.gov.uk/news/article/592/wild_boar_return_to_the_new_forest

I knew I'd had New Forest Boar from the market! :-)

Rose, my poor sister went to 14 schools! :-S
Her first primary school was in Wales - where thy only spoke Welsh.
Her Secondary education began in a High School in Scotland, then a Secondary, Comprehensive, Secondary Modern, a few more - ending in a Grammar School.

Rollo, some children aren't Academic - it doesn't make them less intelligent - it's just their brains work on a more practical level.
Forcing them through Comprehensives, as they now are - ie academically based, with league tables, etc is really unfair.

Allowing them to learn maths and english in a practical way - at a Technical school for example, ensures they enjoy their education and can understand the use of maths etc when it's put in context.

A bit off topic but hey ...

Our part of Normandie has has a large population of wild boar (sanglier). They are reclusive animals and for the most part don't bother people over much. The farmers tolerate them 'cos they do more good than harm and the farmers enjoy the hunting. Wild boar also know where the truffles are so if you have the lore to recognise the spoor and tracks you are in with a shout :-)

If you do get the chance to see wild boar they are magnificent creatures. In areas populated by sangliers it is best to drive slowly especially in the rutting season as collisions tend to be terminal for the driver.

They are very good eating.

New Forest and Forest of Dean schools have cattle grids which prevent the entry of roaming ponies and cattle.

Maggie I can't match that lol, only 9 but that's counting one where I went to for 1 day only lol, my second primary school age 6 was in the Welshest part of Wales, in a tiny village school with about 10 children, everyone spoke Welsh as their first and sometimes only language. I can still count in Welsh and manage the double lls and ffs :-)