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We just don't know Yvonne. It is possible - but I don't think, as a van/lorry driver he would have had enough money to divorce Mary Ann. However it was about that time that the Lilian person made her first appearance at Philip Road. Worth following up. Thanks very much.

I have just sent for the Lewisham death for a Joseph John O'Keefe. If there are no clues from it - then I am giving up. Thanks everybody.

I received the death certificate of a Joseph John O'Keefe who died in Lewisham in May 1978. I then wrote to the informant and have discovered that she died last November. However, her daughter is in process of asking elderly relatives about the man in order to establish if he was the right one. She promised a yes or no so fingers crossed it will be yes.

Malyon - The Hackney death of a Mary Ann Bass is the next one to follow up on.

Thanks everybody.

Malyon - That did not take long - wrong date of birth! Thanks anyway.

So here I go - start again. What became of VERA M JOHNSON who lived at the same address in Camberwell - 27 Philip Road from 1960 to 1965 at least. Both she and John J O'Keefe were there after my uncle Henry Frederick Bass died and the lady he had been with since 1924(Lilian Mary Bass) disappeared from the address at the same time as my uncle died. Any help would be appreciated.

The daughter of the death informant - Margaret O'Shea now deceased - has not emailed me as promised with a yes or no about her uncle John Joseph O'Keefe. It could well be him but no good if all the elderly relatives cannot remember much about him. I will have to start on another John J O'Keefe. There were a few of them around. A breakthrough is long in coming!

Jennifer you really shouldn't be naming the people you're in contact with

- 'The daughter (xx xx) of the death informant'

... the person probably doesn't know about this discussion and may well not want to have their name and personal info associated with it. Best to delete the name.


(I looked long and hard at your thread after you posted in July but couldn't come up with anything to add ...)

Thanks Joonie. Just thought I would update all the helpers as to the current situation and did not think that just a name without any dates would matter. I am reluctant to mark the post as unanswered just yet.
regards.

you can't mark the post 'unanswered' - and never ever mark it 'answered'! :-)

that's something that can't be undone, so best to leave it in case further questions arise etc.


I keep looking back at your thread and poking around for Lilians and Johns ... with the odd theory arising, but ...

well I may as well share :-)

I was looking at these

Marriages Sep 1925
O'Keefe Dennis Wilson W. Ham 4a 821
Wilson Lilian M O'Keefe W.Ham 4a 821

I can't see them together on an electoral roll

then this person would have come of age to vote around when your John J O'K first appeared with Bass on the electoral roll I think

Births Mar 1927
O'Keefe John J Bray Stepney 1c 466

(edit, aargh, he's the one who died in childhood, so that was a stupid theory anyway)

and this is the matching marriage

Marriages Jun 1924
Bray Annie E O'Keefe Poplar 1c 764
O'Keefe John E Bray Poplar 1c 764


so I was hoping to find that Dennis O'K and John Edward O'K were brothers (which would have made Lilian the aunt-in-law of John J) (edit - except that this John J was deceased)

but in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, the people who appear to be them have different parents, one father born in Cork and the other in England at least as stated


so back to the drawing board ...

I'm not seeing this death mentioned here I think

Name: John Joseph O'Keefe
Birth Date: 27 Jul 1927
Date of Registration: Oct 1991
Age at Death: 64
Registration district: Brent
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 11
Page: 835

again that would seem to be a good age for matching when your John J O'K first appeared on electoral rolls?

and there is no birth to match

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F1S1-6Z2

Name John Joseph O'Keeffe
Event Type Birth
> Event Date Jul - Sep 1927
Event Place Dublin South, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Jul - Sep 1927
Registration District Dublin South
Volume Number 2
Page Number 383

?

Thanks again Joonie. I shall have to read your latest findings over and over before it all sinks in! So a death in October 1991 showing a matching birth date has only one "f" whereas the birth in Dublin has two.
I suppose it is feasible that John J moved out of Camberwell soon after we can see him on the electoral register with Vera Johnson and the pair of them went to live in Brent Middlesex. He first appeared at uncle's address 27 Philip Road in 1955 and was there as far as records go to on here but he may have been there a lot longer.
I got excited when you found a Dennis O'Keefe marrying Lilian M Wilson. Woudl that marriage be on the marriages and bans on Ancestry do you think?
Which certificate would you advise me to send for next please?

Dennis O'Keefe and Lilian M Wilson are interesting ... but I don't think that certificate would likely be useful just now ...

(oops, read down, we can discard this one)

Births Jun 1901
O'Keefe Dennis W. Ham 4a 8

the family is 'Keep' at Ancestry in 1901 and Dennis was in the household

Thomas O Keep 30
Maria O Keep 36
Thomas Waterloo O Keep 4
Margaret O Keep 1
> Dennis O Keep 3 Weeks

so born before census ... so

Name: Dennis O'Keefe
> Birth Date: 8 Mar 1901
Date of Registration: Jun 1972
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Havering
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5c
Page: 214

(discard because)

1964 electoral roll in Havering

Name: Dennis O'Keefe + Elsie Maud O'Keefe
Year: 1964
County or Borough: Hornchurch
Ward or Division/Constituency: Havering
Street address: 3 Woburn Avenue

Name: Elsie Maud O'Keefe
Birth Date: 7 Aug 1902
Date of Registration: May 1989
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Havering
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 13
Page: 85

Marriages Sep 1929
O'Keefe Dennis Senear W.Ham 4a 355
Senear Elsie M O'Keefe W. Ham 4a 355

just ruling out that Dennis on the ER ... who is almost certainly the one born in 1901 in West Ham then

there are other Dennis O'Keefe marriages around the same time that are not accounted for by births in England, so I think there were imported Dennis O'Keefes :-) ... who perhaps did not remain in England ...

in any event the Wilson-O'Keefe marriage did not result in children (unless Wilson was previously married) and I still don't see them on an electoral roll together


I dunno ... round and round I have gone

if you feel like flinging money around, it might actually be interesting to see the Wilson-O'Keefe marriage certificate, at least to get their ages and marital statuses and have that info for looking for later records


another candidate for the Wilson-O'Keefe marriage

Name: Dennis O'Keefe
Birth Date: abt 1900
Date of Registration: Sep 1955
Age at Death: 55
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 66

As there are so many of them I don't feel inclined to use another £9.25 for what is most certainly not going to help identify the JJO'K from 1955 - 1965. The words wall, brick, banging and head come to mind!
Was there anything in the Ancestry Wills & Probate section for Dennis O'Keefe in 1955? Probably they did not have money enough to necessitate probate - but you never know. I really must join Ancestry again as soon as money permits.
The Vera M Johnson may not have been Henry Fred's partner and just a lady renting a room there? If they were an item as such is there any way of finding the pair of them on an electoral roll then we would have a place of death. I still don't know where Lilian M Bass went to when she disappeared from 27 Philip Road. Maybe when she died she got registered in her own name - whatever that was.

I'm just going to summarize the ER households as I keep having to go back pages to look at them

1947 Henry F Bass and Lilian M Bass
1955-56 Henry F Bass, Lilian M Bass and John J O'Keefe
1957 Henry F Bass, Vera M Johnson and John J O'Keefe
1959 Henry F Bass, Vera M Johnson and John J O'Keefe
HFB died 1959
1961-62 John J O'Keefe and Vera M Johnson

So JJO'K appeared before Vera M Johnson
Vera M Johnson appeared the year Lilian M Bass disappeared
JJO'K remained with Vera M Johnson after HFB died

if John was related to Lilian, it would not make sense for him to remain if Vera replaced Lilian, unless Lilian had died (and was replaced in very short order)

the impression I sort of have is that Vera M Johnson was with JJO'K rather than with HFB

other possibility to keep in mind is that Vera and John were in the household earlier but were not old enough to be on the ER

Lilian M deaths in Southwark 1956-57 with birthdates 1885-1910

Lilian M Foster abt 1895 Mar 1956
Lilian M Gates abt 1892 Jun 1957
Lilian M Jackson abt 1895 Mar 1956
(none for Mary L)

nothing to add here, just wanted to do the summary :-)

Thanks for summarising. What if Vera M Johnson was a daughter of one of them and came of voting age in 1957? Johnson may have been Lilian M Bass's real name? Similarly John J O'Keefe could have been not of voting age until 1955. Now that starts a whole new ballgame! Ancestry just emailed me to tell of their new look version. What do you think of it? I really freaked out when FInd My Past changed theirs a while back.

not adding anything to the search, but picking up on the earlier comment about Probate.

The England/Wales Probate Calendar entries from 1858 to earlier this year can be searched and viewed for free on

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

They are exactly the same as the ones on Ancestry (to 1966). One thing you do have to remember is that until 1996 they are listed within the year the probate/Administration was granted. That may have been one or more years after the person had died. Not all Estates went to Probate, even if there was a Will.

The Ancestry database does index by the year of death - there wasn't an entry for Dennis O'Keefe died 1955

I'll have to start paying attention to this probate business won't I :-)

I have not had the fortitude to take up Ancestry's offer of its new look yet. I do not want to know until I am forced to! I hate every single thing Ancestry does ...


anyway that was my thinking, yes, what if one or both of John and Vera were children of Lilian in particular ... but what an exciting life that would have made for ...

I even wondered about this death :-)

Name: Vera Lilian M Johnson
Birth Date: 12 Sep 1923
Date of Registration: Feb 2002
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Mid Devon
Inferred County: Devon
Register Number: 32D
District and Subdistrict: 4211
Entry Number: 70

but this seems to be the matching birth and doesn't offer anything

Births Dec 1923
Johnson Vera L M Cox Brentford 3a 219

as for matching it to a marriage, good luck, although I guess I would guess

Marriages Mar 1919
Johnson Mary A Cox Brentford 3a 125
Cox Albert Johnson Brentford 3a 12[56]

just a curiosity I'm sure :-)

oh and one other thing I mean to mention ... never discount the possibility that Lilian Mary was born plain old Lily May.

I know of a Lilian Marion who was finally found being born Lily Mary in the 1890s ... and my sister has the middle name Lilian after our grandmother who told us years later that her name was really Lily but our grandfather thought, in 1920, that 'Lily' was 'common'. Modern young women in the early 1900s sometimes decided to jazz up their names.

Detective to spare me learning a new trick ... I suppose there is no probate for Henry Frederick Bass at all? THAT would certainly have answered some questions!

edit

no, I found the Ancestry index, and of course not.

Detective, I just tried to free Probate & Wills site and they want £10! Am I doing something wrong here please?

The £10 is to actually purchase a copy of the Will/Letter of Administration. If you go ahead it ought to be available to down load to your computer in about 10 days (time will vary based on demand/staffing levels)

The entries you can see (to 1966) are exactly the same as Ancestry hold. They can be useful to determine if a death previously found relates to your person of interest.

For instance, picking a random SMITH with a probate entry in 1965
SMITH Ada of 2 Rest Cottages Canewedon Rochford Essex died 13 March 1965 at The General Hospital Rochford Probate Ipswich 1 April to Susannah Leesons widow.

The entry tells us who died, when and where. Where she lived and who the executor was. Some entries will give an occupation if the Executor had one. Now if I’d been researching this person, I might already know that she had a sibling or daughter named Susannah and would be comfortable that it was the correct record.

On the same page are a number of other Ada Smiths, dying in Hove, Hinkley, Thorpe Bay, Henefield and Berkhampstead.

At some point (1967/68 or thereabouts) the Executors name is removed from the entries, but as the normal residence remains, it’s still a handy finding tool…..and you don’t need to subscribe to Ancestry to access it!

Things changed in 1996 removing all but the bare facts hence the separate tab.