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yes i've just had a look and realised..thanks. ill try and find the other trees and send a message
thank you

not a bad possibility at all! ... where was it?

yes, she might have just liked the name Ruth ... and truly at that time, it was not unheard of for modern young women to change their names like that when they married ... my grandmother did :-)

... uh oh ... is it this one?

Name: Annie Jones
Birth Date: 24 Oct 1894
Baptism Date: 1 Jul 1895
Parish: Toxteth, St James
Father's name: John Jones
Mother's name: Annie Jones
Reference Number: 283 JAM/2/6

that father was a Tailor, unfortunately

rather than 'sailor' a record will usually say 'seaman'

Ok thank you very much I'll have a look on ancestry shortly and message some people . I've also found a baptism for an Annie Jones born oct 1894 . Father is john Jones and he's a sailor .. Maybe she just liked the name Ruth and called her daughter Ruth too . Obviously just a possibility but once I've cooked the kids tea i'llget searching all possibilities
Thankyou for the help

thinking about the 1918 marriage posted by Rose and the further info posted by Jacqueline

and now what Sharon has said which suggests that Ruth A Jones James may have died between 1921 (when Sharon's nan was placed in the first home) and 1925 (when she was moved to the second home)

I wondered about this death

Name: Annie Kendrick
Birth Date: abt 1896
Date of Registration: Mar 1923
Age at Death: 27
Registration district: Bucklow
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 234

Age 27 in early 1923 would match with our Ruth Annie's age 21 in later 1916 (i.e. birth between March 1895 and 3rd quarter 1895)

there are other Annie + Kendrick marriages, for instance in Chorlton and Wigan, that could account for that death ...

however ... for the Kendrick-James marriage there actually seems to have been a birth registered in first quarter 1916 in West Derby (i.e. possibly born 1915) as surname James, mother James, with middle initial K, reregistered in 4th quarter 1929 as Kendrick with mother James ... the reregistration would fit with the travel of RL Kendrick to South Africa in 1930 ... an R Kendrick born c1915 travelled to South Africa in 1935 (but so did other Kendricks, also to Cape)

since that James-James birth precedes the James-Jones marriage, that marriage does seem unlikely to be our Ruth ... it seems more likely to be a Kendrick-James couple who had a child before marriage, possibly while the husband was at the front, then married asap after the war, after which the wife died and the husband then went to SA and the child followed ... SA archives do show a Robert Kendrick, no middle name, involved in divorce proceedings in SA in 1969 ... the Robert Kendrick born 1915 who died in Enfield in 2001 is not the 1915 Robert Kendrick-James

so I think I've ruled out that James+Kendrick marriage ... because it would not have made sense for our Ruth Annie Jones to register a birth as James-James before her marriage to Ernest James, and for him to be subsequently registered as Kendrick ... unless ... he was really Ernest James's son, and Ernest died in the war and Robert Kendrick took the son on as his own ... but in that case why not the daughter too?

someone has corrected Robert Kendrick's name in the 1911 census at Ancestry

Name: Robert Hendrich [Robert Kendrick]
Age in 1911: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1893
Relation to Head: Stepson [it says Son, not Stepson]
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Birkenhead
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: 15 Barnston St Bhead
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Appentrice Joiner
Registration district: Birkenhead

it could be worth enquiring (the person was active at Ancestry today so is reachable)

also one person has Robert Kendrick 1893 Birkenhead in their tree here at Genes Reunited

this could be a quick way of ruling out that marriage (or not)

Ok thanks for all your help . I've ordered Ernest james birth cetificate so hopefully that will lead me to his death cetificate and then see what info that throws up
Thanks once again . Much appreciated

Your great grandmother could have been born virtually anywhere, and until some factual info about her birth year can be found, it's going to continue to be a problem to pinpoint her.

If she was being truthful when she said her father had been in the merchant navy there is the possibility that they moved around to fit in with his service

Referring back to the marriage info posted by Rose

An R L Kendrick of the right age migrated to South Africa in 1930 What happened to his wife is anyone's guess, as there is no info about her on FMP that I can see

BTW, Sharon, that marriage was in Cheshire............

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1918
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register OfficeKENDRICK Robert Lang JAMES Ruth Anne Oxton, Congregational Church (Balls Road) Wirral BK33/1/28

I know that she was placed in the first home in 1921 and moved to a different children's home in 1925 . My nan remembered her mother visiting her in the first home on regular occasions . On the last visit she was told by the nuns that Her mother was very ill and she wouldn't be seeing her again and on that visit her mum brought her a lovely doll . She never saw her mum again . And she was transferred to fazackerly because you could only stay at olive mount until you was 8 years old . Then from fazackerly lots of children were adopted ..mainly overseas but my nan wasn't and got fostered out at the age of 11 where she remained till she was 16 and made Her own way in life . She always wondered whether she had any brothers or sisters .

just for our info this is Ernest in 1911

Name: Ernest James
Age in 1911: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: St Helens, Lancashire, England
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Stone Sawyer

Civil Parish: Prescot
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 2 Royal Hotel Yd Derby St Prescot
Registration district: Prescot

Ann James 56
Samuel James 25 watch repairer
Arthur James 22 copper wire winder
Ernest James 20
Edith James 18


and in 1891

Name: Ernest James
Age: 8/12
Estimated birth year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Father's name: Edward James
Mother's name: Annie James
Gender: Male
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: St Helens
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: St Helens
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Prescot

Edward James 38 upholsterer
Annie James 36
Edward James 7
Samuel James 8
Arthur James 2
Ernest James 8/12

(eldest son Edward seems to be a baker's foreman in 1911 possibly, in Whiston and Prescot)


Births Dec 1890
James Ernest Prescot 8b 700


you think that by 1921 when your nan was placed in care, Ernest's mother Ann (closer to 70 than 60) was living at the address of an upholsterer shop in Liverpool and caring for young Ruth

I would think that unlikely ... unless the upholsterer were one of Ernest's older brothers for instance and it was really the younger couple she had been left with

I suspect rather that Ruth, if her name was Ruth, had adopted the name Ann that she may or may not have had as her middle name ... or that perhaps Ann/ie was her real name and she had adopted Ruth

it was not at all uncommon for young women in the early 1900s to modernise their names from the ones they had that seemed old fashioned at the time, and Annie would be one such

Thank you I do understand what you are saying now thank goodness . And no they didn't find the birth certificate based on Ruth Lyons death . We obtained the birth certificate in 2002 and I only got Ruth Lyons death certificate last week .
So now I will email liverpool and see if they can help Me find the right birth certificate
Thankyou everyone for your help it's much appreciated

Sharon, the only reason you have that Ruth Jones birth certificate is that it matches the birthdate for Ruth Lyons on her death

it's not a huge coincidence that her father was John, and the fact that the occupation of >your Ruth Jones' father and >that Ruth Jones' father is different is explained by the fact that they are two different Ruths with two different fathers John

(if your Ruth's father was really John Jones anyway)

yes, I think you have the wrong birth certificate for your Ruth Jones ! and your Ruth is not the Ruth who married Lyon ... that is what everybody has been saying

what the person searched for was a birth certificate to match the death you had found, as I understand it? and it does ... it just isn't your Ruth

eliminate that Ruth Jones

your Ruth could have come from Wales for all we know ... there are dozens of them in the 1901 Wales census born around the right time

if your Ruth had not been pregnant and said she was 21 at the time she married Ernest, we could have more confidence in what she said on the marriage certificate (father's name and occupation, her age) ... but the circumstances were such that it's just as likely that both her father and her age were fabricated, if not her name itself

are the dads names and occupations the same on BOTH marriage certs?

it really does seem there are two Ruth Jones

Did you find a death for Ruth James or her hubby in case she remarried after his death

I don't think I get exactly what your saying but I do know what you mean about Ruth Jones and Henry lyon living a normal life .
The info I have for john Jones came from Ruth Jones birth certificate stating her father was john Jones snd a glass blower and her mother Elizabeth Jones nee Austin and their adress 6 exeter street . So I have the right census information for them as they still lived there in the 1901 and 1911 census . Now if I go off that info then the msrriage to Henry lyon is more believable as it lists john Jones as deceased and a glass blower and Ruth aged 20 which she was going off her birth certificate .And the date of birth for Ruth Jones that married Henry is exactly as the birth certificate because it tells me on her death certificate . So I think we have the wrong birth certificate for My Nan's mum even though we had someone at liverpool search for it but back then they didn't have the technology we have now I don't think .
As for upsetting Jacqueline .. It wasn't intentional and it's the first time I have used these boards . So I apologise and won't make the same mistake again

for our info, this is the Ruth Jones who married Lyons, I believe? in 1911


Name: Ruth Jones
Age in 1911: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1895
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Sptiter Girl Glass Works

Birth Place: St Helens, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: St Helens
Registration district: Prescot
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 6 Exeter St St Helens Lancashire

John Jones 39 glass blower
Elizabeth Jones 40
Ruth Jones 16
Berty Jones 14
Charles Jones 12
Ernest Jones 10
Austin Jones 7
Harald Jones 5
Jack Jones 3
Harry Jones 1/12

if you don't understand why Jacqueline was not a happy bunny, it is because you have run two threads about slightly different aspects of the exact same thing which is against the guidelines because people duplicate effort ... and now it is discouraging for anyone who wants to figure out what has been researched, what has been discarded ...

you say

'The Ruth Lyon that died in [Knowsley] had the exact date off Birth as my Ruth Jones 03-04-1895.
The informant on the death certificate is their son Richard Lyon'


it seems fairly clear that you have just gone in a big circle ... you found the death of a Ruth Annie Lyons that matches the marriage of Ruth Jones to Lyons, and then you got the birth certificate for that Ruth Jones

'my Ruth Jones 03-04-1895' ... is not your Ruth Jones, she is the Ruth Jones who married Lyon

that Ruth Jones Lyons seems to have lived a perfectly normal life, being born, marrying, having children with her husband, and staying married to him

this is a closed circle that your Ruth Jones just does not come into !

you call the birth certificate you have the one for your nan's mum, but that is based only on your assumption that the death certificate you got is for your nan's mum, etc

the 1916 Jones+James marriage certificate says

'Ruth Annie Jones 21 . Father john Jones deceased . Occupation merchant service captain and their address didn't exist'

so presumably the birth certificate you got says father John Jones ... but how many John Jones were there??

you found a Ruth Jones with father John in the censuses whose father was a glass blower?

it's very hard to follow what info comes from where, here


your Ruth could indeed have lied about various things on her marriage certificate ... the most obvious might be her age ... she married only 3 months before their child was born and may have been too young to marry without parental permission, for example ... note that she made herself exactly 21, the legal age for marrying without permission

your Ruth might have been born to unmarried parents and simply made up the father she put on the marriage certificate, is another not uncommon possibility


but the reasoning that brought you to Lyons is really completely circular, do you see?

I Am presuming birkenhead gave us the right birth certificate and we have tried tracing Ernest in ww1 as I know that's a possibility . I know there weren't any Ruth Annie Jones in the area at that time which is what she put her name as on her marriage to Ernest .
Liverpool city council helped to track the birth certificate for my nan's mum and we have never questioned it until I came across the marrisge to Henry lyon and also I didn't realise wihen I just put her birth date in on ancestry and the surname that it would narrow the death results to just one or two people .
Yes I did notice the marriage for Ruth Anne james to Robert Kendrick . I haven't sent off for that certificate yet and that's becsuse when you search on Lancashire bmd there is an asterisk at the side of their name if they have been married before .
So let's say liverpool gave us the wrong birth certificate then who do I contact to get the right one ? We got the birth certificate back in 2002

It's possible Ernest died in the war.

Have you seen this?

Marriages Sep 1918 (>99%)
James Ruth A Kendrick Birkenhead 8a 1237
Kendrick Robert L James Birkenhead 8a 1237

Can't find any trace of them after this.

Rose

You're assuming the birth cert for a Ruth Jones is the correct one. How do you know it is? Do you know how many Ruth Jones there were?

All the evidence seems to point to it being the wrong one.

Rose

Also a possibility is that she left her baby daughter Ruth with Ernest and his mother . My nan was 5 when she was put into the first home . Then when she was 8 she was transferred to fazackerly homes and we received a letter from liverpool city council in 2002 stating Annie james as her mum .. But Annie james was Ernest's mum . And the address for his mum was in liverpool . The adress was a upholster shop and Ernest's dad was an upholsterer before he died . I think she was most likely put in the home as Ernest's mum would of been in her 60's when my nan was 5 and maybe her health wasn't so good .
And because Ruth got married in Birkenhead to Ernest and let St helens like she did to Henry then maybe he didn't know about the marriage or if he did perhaps he didn't know about the baby if they had split up for a while .
Just a thought .

Like I say I don't have all the answers . I am just trying to piece together what happened and try and move forwards to find living ancestors .
Of course there is the possibility that we have been given the wrong birth certificate for my Nan's mum . So I'm really not sure what to make of it