Military Chat

Fair enough. Unfortunately without documentation mistakes can be made. I'm just not sure how we can confirm that Williams father was Jonathan, William, or a completely different man!

From the records which Kucinta has found, and the earlier census, Jonathan Rush did marry a Mary Ann. I don't think we've looked for a Mary Ann married to a different Rush.

I think that for a starter, you'd be wise to purchase a copy of either
1) Your father's BC
or if you wanted to find out what your grandfather was doing in 1921,
b) Rose's BC

Births Dec 1921 Rush Rose M Grimsby Tendring 4a 1347

Depending on the address, it might be possible to back track on the ER to see when he first started living at the declared residence. Only eligible males would be listed, not females unless they owned a property.

If you wanted to follow the Grimsby line, then it would be advisable to purchase Christinas's MC in 1950 to Mr Cole. That would give her father's name if known.

Oh what a tangled web they wove!

i was following someone eles tree they not actually marrid but were a couple mary ann was his mum i do no that thanks alison

i was following someone eles tree they not actually marrid but were a couple mary ann was his mum i do no that thanks alison

That seems a logical explanation Kucinta.

Alison, we really need to know the mothers name *as written* on your dad's BC.

If you don't have a copy, you can order it or one of the earlier births from http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ at a cost of £9.25.

You can find the references you need on Freebmd.

I'm still concerned that Alison has picked up on the wrong initial marriage and from there the name of Williams father. If the date of birth and date/year of death for grandfather William are correct, then they do tie in with the census entries with his father as Jonathan (I think :-S)

I think DET is right, you do need to go back and invest in some certs to be sure you're on the right track.

I have to admit I did favour the William Rush son of Jonathan because his birth fitted in so well with the age of William at death in 1934 Tendring, Essex, and thought he might well be the same William son of Jonathan who married Winifred Burr in India.

However information on a death cert is only as good as that of the informant - while the age may well be correct, there is also a chance that as Christina was so much younger than William, William may have been inclined to lop a few years off his age.

More to help rule out the William Rush married to Winifred Maud Burr.

Alison mentioned William and Christina had 8 children, I could only find 7 Rush-Grimsey children in FreeBMD.

When I looked back at Alison's list, the name that was missing on FreeBMD was Rose.

If Grimsby is a mistranscription of Grimsey, then William and Christina were together even earlier:

Births Dec 1921 Rush Rose M Grimsby Tendring 4a 1347

The Rush/Grimsey children in case it helps to sort things out

Births Mar 1923 (>99%)
Rush William G Grimsey Tendring vol 4a page 1354

Births Dec 1925 (>99%)
Rush Betty A Grimsey Tendring

Births Jun 1928 (>99%)
Rush John E Grimsey Tendring

Births Mar 1930 (>99%)
Rush Alice K Grimsey Tendring

Births Sep 1931 (>99%)
Rush Arthur E P Grimsey Tendring

Births Sep 1932 (>99%)
Rush June P Grimsey Tendring

Births Dec 1934 (>99%)
Rush Beatrice C Grimsey Tendring

Unless they married outside the UK or she was married before, its likely that she took his name. As a widow she married under the surname of Rush.

We can confidently say that they were making babies by 1922.

As this thread was originally about William's military career, it might be worth purchasing William G Rush's 1923 BC to see what his father's occupation was.

It looks as if he died in 1992 - don't worry about the birth being registered in 1923 as his parents would have up to 6 weeks before they did it.

England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007

Name: William George Rush
Birth Date: 28 Nov 1922
Date of Registration: Jun 1992
Age at Death: 69
Registration district: Colchester
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 9
Page: 2197

EDIT: I have deleted info I posted on the children of William Rush and Winifred Burr in the light of DetEcTive's later post.

If William Rush was a witness at the marriage of his daughter Feb 1922 in India, then he is unlikely to be the William Rush who was father of the William G Rush registered Tendring Q1 in 1923.

EDIT: I have deleted info I posted on the children of William Rush and Winifred Burr in the light of DetEcTive's later post.

EDIT: This now seems very unlikely to be the same William Rush who raised a family with Christina Grimsey. I have left this post intact though, as it shows this William was apparently still with his wife in early 1922, so was very unlikely to be the same William Rush who was Christina's partner.

------------------------------

I've pmed you images of both India marriages, in case one of them is relevant to your grandfather William.

I think this may be a baptism for Winifred Maud Burr, as her father was named James on the 1902 marriage.

If it is she who was your William's wife, I wonder whether or not she and the children might have stayed on in India?

British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns- Births & Baptisms Transcription

First Name Winefred Maud
Last Name Burr
Date Of Baptism 23 Apr 1879
Date Of Birth 22 Mar 1879
Father's First Name James
Mother's First Name Christiana
Place Bangalore,St John
Presidency Madras
Father's Last Name Burr
Mother's Last Name -
Archive Reference N-2-60
Folio 113
Page -
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Madras
Record set British India Office births & baptisms

Father James was an Inspector D.P.W.

I did a quick look into the chidren of this marriage, not going into much detail as I don't know if you think this marriage might be your grandfather's or not.

Dorothy May died aged 5 days in India in 1905. Cause of death was 'immaturity at birth' Father is described as Store Sergeant William Rush of the Ordinance Dept.

Gerald Ernest died in India aged 15 yrs 11 months of enteric fever.

Gladys Irene married in Feb 1922 in India to a planter named Gilbert Kenyon.

EDIT: The witnesses at Gladys' marriage were William Rush and Winifred Maud Rush, so if this is your grandfather he was probably still with his wife in 1922.

A Leslie Herbert Rush aged 26 married in India in 1939. I wondered if there were any chance he was the Leslie H Rush mmn Burr born Woolwich 1912:

Births Dec 1912 Rush Leslie H Burr Woolwich 1d 2236

British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns

Bride's Forename Leonora Matilda
Bride's Surname Mackay
Bride's Age 25
Groom's Forename Leslie Herbert
Groom's Surname Rush
Groom's Age 26
Year Of Marriage 1939
Date Of Marriage 1939
Place Bombay
Presidency -
Bride's Father's Forename -
Bride's Father's Surname -
Groom's Father's Forename -
Groom's Father's Surname -
Archive Reference -
Folio No. 136
Catalogue Description -
Entry No. 756
Record set British India Office marriages

There is no image so I can't check for father's name etc.

No further trace of Clifford George in India, I did find this death for a man of the right age in England:

Name: Clifford George Rush
Birth Date: 2 May 1910
Date of Registration: Mar 1987
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Hastings and Rother
Inferred County: East Sussex
Volume: 18
Page: 979

No corresponding birth in the FreeBMD.

This man of the same name is on passenger lists:

Name: Clifford Rush
Birth Date: abt 1911
Age: 23
Port of Departure: Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date: 9 Feb 1934
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Brisbane
[Hobart]
[Sydney]
[Melbourne]
[Adelaide]
[Colombo]
[Bombay]
Ship Name: Carthage

Shipping line: Peninsula and Orient Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 162670

He was 'Indian Police' from Bombay and was heading for Woodside Close, Tolworth, Surrey.

He may have married Constance Rowley in Q4 Kensington 1937.

WILLIAM AND CHRISTINA HAD JHON ROSE WILLIAM BETTY ALICE ARTHUR JUNE BEATRICE AS WE DO NOT NO WHEN HIS WIFE D SO THEY DID NOT MTHANKS ALISON

I agree we do need to know what actual facts Alison has about the family.

If it is her Dad who was born 1928, then Caecilia De Silva is unlikely to have been his mother, as aged 18 in 1895, she would have been approx 50 yrs old in 1928. Also we know her maiden name was De Silva, as she is described as a spinster on her marriage record, and her father is named as Luke Bernard De Silva.

If Christina Grimsey was William's long term partner, and simply assumed his surname, then that does lend credence, as DetEcTive says, to the possibility that William was already married.

The birth of William Rush 1872 Colchester does tie in well with the death of William Rush 1934 that DetEcTive has already posted, which also tallies with the 1881 census entry for William born Colchester, son of Jonathan.

So we do need some answers from Alison :-)

I'm beginning to wonder if Alison needs to go back to the beginning, and purchase some certificates. With two men with the same name, its possible to follow the wrong line.

For a start, her father's BC, then look for a marriage between her grandparents. If there isn't one, then it does give credence to the suggestion that William was already married to someone else.

Alison - if you already have documentation, could we have the details please - if your father is still alive, then just give us the basics ie year/place he was born, and his mothers name as given on the BC.

If the grandparents were married - then full details please from the MC, not just hearsay. We all have elderly relations who twist the facts to save face. The name of the father (your grt grandfather) if known will confirm if he was a William or a Jonathan.

On a slight tangent - is this the marriage of the Jonathan and Mary A Rush in the 1881 census DetEcTive posted?

Her birthplace was given as Ireland:

Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958

Name: Jonathan Rush
Date of Registration: 1875
Registration district: Cork
Volume: 20
Page Number: 47
FHL Film Number: 101252

Records on Page:
Name
Mary Anne O'Sullivan<<<<<<<<<<<
Robert Roscoe
Jonathan Rush<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Margaret Robertson
Catherine Wakefield
Thomas Broderick
Richard Love
Annie Dineen
Annie Deneen

If 'your' William Rush was definitely the son of Jonathan Rush, then it looks like the 1902 marriage in India to Winifred Maud Burr is a good possibility, as father's name is Jonathan on that marriage register.

The 1895 marriage to Caecilia De Silva is an older man (aged 26, born c1869), a widower, and the son of another William Rush, not the son of a Jonathan Rush.

Did William then at some point move on to live as man and wife with Christina Grimsey, possibly without an actual marriage ceremony?

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

There are seven Rush children with mother maiden name Grimsey registered in the Tendring district between 1923 and 1934, readily findable on :

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

4 boys including John, and 3 girls.

So things don't seem to entirely add up....

The William Rush who married Caecilia/Caccilia De Silva had a father named William Rush, and William jr was a widower when he married Caecilia, and about 8 yrs older than you stated 'your' William to be (he was aged 26 at time of marriage in May 1895).

A William Rush who was a Sergeant in the Ordinance Dept and had a father named Jonathan Rush married as a bachelor in India in 1902 to a Winifred Maud Burr. The image only says they were of full age. According to the Indian Army list DetEcTive found, it looks like this William was still in India in 1912. This couple had at least four children born in India, as I have posted already.

I have yet to find the marriage of a William Rush to a Miss Grimsey, the maiden name given for the mother of John Rush registered in Q2 1928 in the Tendring district, who seems to be the John Rush born 1928 St Osyth.

I hope someone else can make a better job of untangling what seems to be conflicting information :-S

AT last!

More detail on the Rush-De Silva marriage.

I had problems finding it as I was looking under Rush., and William Rush is mistranscribed as Rust:

British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns

Bride's Forename Caccilia
Bride's Surname De Silva
Bride's Age 18
Groom's Forename William
Groom's Surname Rust
Groom's Age 26
Year Of Marriage 1895
Date Of Marriage 13 May 1895
Place Karachi
Presidency Bombay
Bride's Father's Forename Luke Bernard
Bride's Father's Surname De Silva
Groom's Father's Forename William
Groom's Father's Surname Rust
Archive Reference N-3-73
Folio No. 284
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bombay, 1709-1948, :
Entry No. 2
Record set British India Office marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

NOTE William's father is NOT Jonathan as Alison stated, but William.

According to the image - which does say Rush rather than Rust, William was a widower, aged 26 years, and a clerk , Commis. Dep.

Caecilia was an 18 yr old spinster. She signed herself Cicy De Silva.

EDIT: She is transcribed Caccilia, it looks more like Caecilia on the image to me.

Alison,

You said Christina Grimsey wasn't William's wife.

Yet you appear to have a John Rush born St Osyth, Essex, 1928, on your tree.

ST Osyth comes under Tendring reg district, so this would be the corresponding BMD entry.

Births Jun 1928 Rush John E Grimsey Tendring 4a 1235

Note the maiden name of the mother is given as GRIMSEY.

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

EDIT: Or did you mean William never actually married Christina, but that they were a couple?

Some India born children of William Rush and Winifred Maud, if only for elimination purposes:

First Name Dorothy May
Last Name Rush
Date Of Baptism 6 May 1905
Date Of Birth 02 May 1905
Father's First Name William
Mother's First Name Winifred Maud
Place Allahabad
Presidency Bengal
Father's Last Name Rush
Mother's Last Name -
Archive Reference N-1-324
Folio 84
Page -
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal
Record set British India Office births & baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

First Name Gladys Irene
Last Name Rush
Date Of Baptism 2 Nov 1903
Date Of Birth 14 Oct 1903
Father's First Name William
Mother's First Name Winifred Maud
Place Quetta
Presidency Bengal
Father's Last Name Rush
Mother's Last Name -
Archive Reference N-1-312
Folio 235
Page -
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal
Record set British India Office births & baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Births & baptisms

First Name Gerald Ernest
Last Name Rush
Date Of Baptism 9 Sep 1908
Date Of Birth 20 Aug 1908
Father's First Name William
Mother's First Name Winifred Maud
Place Bangalore,St Mark
Presidency Madras
Father's Last Name Rush
Mother's Last Name -
Archive Reference N-2-104
Folio 5
Page -
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Madras
Record set British India Office births & baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

First Name Clifford George
Last Name Rush
Date Of Baptism 18 May 1910
Date Of Birth 02 May 1910
Father's First Name William
Mother's First Name Winifred Maud
Place Bangalore,St Mark
Presidency Madras
Father's Last Name Rush
Mother's Last Name -
Archive Reference N-2-107
Folio 80
Page -
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Madras
Record set British India Office births & baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Births & baptisms

No record of a John, so I guess this is not the right family/marriage - I was attracted to it because this William's father was a Jonathan Rush, according to his marriage record.