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Query Over Collar Insignia - Glosters WW1

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Kucinta Report 9 May 2015 23:13

Possible for Elizabeth with a father named John, in Wells, in 1851:

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Portway, Saint Cuthbert Wells, Wells, Somerset, England

John Gardiner Head Married Male 36 1815 Carpenter Joiner (Journeyman) Wells, Somerset, England<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Eliza Gardiner Wife Married Female 26 1825 Paper Maker (Journeywoman) Wells, Somerset, England
Frederick Gardiner Son - Male 5 1846 Scholar Wells, Somerset, England
Elizabeth Gardiner Daughter - Female 4 1847 - Wells, Somerset, England <<<<<<
Charles Gardiner Son - Male 1 1850 - Wells, Somerset, England

By 1861 the family had moved to Bristol:

Name: Elizabeth Gardner
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: 1847
Relation: Daughter (Child)
Father's name: John Gardner
Mother's name: Eliza Gardner
Gender: Female
Where born: Wells, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Bristol Temple
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

Household Members:
Name Age
John Gardner 48 c1813 Wells, Somerset, England
Eliza Gardner 38 c1823 Wells, Somerset, England
Frederick Gardner 15 c1846 Wells, Somerset, England
Elizabeth Gardner 14 c1847 Wells, Somerset, England<<<<
Jane Gardner 8 c1853 Wells, Somerset, England
Charlotte Gardner 4 c1857 Wells, Somerset, England
Mary Gardner 1 c1860 Wells, Somerset, England
James Curnick 45
Charlotte Curnick 76
Jane Morgan 22
Harriet Morgan 15

I think the Curnicks are a separate household within the same building.


Paul Report 10 May 2015 00:21

Kucinta !

You are a wizzery-kid for sure ... Probably have a gene for a super fast road runner - but well done and many thanks for helping me here .. It's good of you to give me time like this .

To answer you :

Yes I had seen that Tovey marriage Clifton ref ... It threw me though ... Most of the St John's ref's do make logical sense since the church is close to West Street and is on this Bedminster-Tovey axis of my studies.

Strangely enough in my notes, taken over the phone from an aged Tovey aunt, I have a "Francis Stone" reference - but it's mixed up with the entirely the wrong person ... Oh dear it happens - we all get frail in memory ..

But yes the story goes that Philip's first wife was Mary Ann Webster and it was implied to me she had died . His second wife was indeed supposed to be Elizabeth Gardener (etc)

You have cracked it though with that geneo-tweakery and unravelling the Francis Stone ref and the fact that both Elizabeth and Philip were widowers.. Hah !

The christening refs are a plus for me - I suppose since I was looking at old maps and reading them as I do by "walking down their streets" and old crow flying , that Church St John attracted me a lot .. Not the least because Sidney Tovey - him of the football skills of the Bedminster Trams for whom he worked 38 years for , had that church right at the back of the Tram depot ..

What a small and complex world it was for them . Compact and close .. Contained . I envy them in some ways .. I wonder why Clifton ? St Jude ? I suppose Elizabeth had family over that way ... I was fancying she came from the Gardeners over that way who were very rich ... Oh well that's just a typical ego fantasy of the truly dispossessed .. :))

But I like the truth ... :-) Its like a cake really ... It's edible and real ... :-)

What can I say but thanks .. Is there a photo perhaps you have you would like me to restore a little better than what it is ... I have a few skills in that dept ?

Kind regards a slow runner .... Paul ..


Kucinta Report 10 May 2015 00:49


Didn't think of christening records re Sidney.

Here it is. No image, so can't look to see if a birthdate was recorded.

First name(s) Sidney
Last name Tovey
Baptism year 1893
Baptism date 15 Sep 1893
Baptism place Bedminster, Down Mission Church, Somersetshire, England
Father's first name(s) Philip
Father's last name Tovey
Mother's first name Elizabeth
Mother's last name Tovey
Place Bedminster, Down Mission Church
Town Bristol
County Gloucestershire
Country England
Record set Gloucestershire, Bristol Baptism Index 1660-1914
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms

has quite a few baptisms for children of Philip and Elizabeth Tovey; not sure if it has the full baker's dozen mentioned in census 1911, but you may well have checked those out already .


Kucinta Report 10 May 2015 01:08

Probable birth to tie in with the baptism:

Births Sep 1893 Tovey Sidney Bedminster 5c 666


Paul Report 10 May 2015 01:30

Yeah got it .... Thankyou again Kucinta


Bob Report 10 May 2015 21:59

Just a long shot Paul, but do you have an Augustus Herbert, or Herbert Augustus Tovey in your tree? Probably born around 1910-15.


Paul Report 10 May 2015 22:15

Bob ...

No I do not recognise that name at all .. There was a Robert Tovey (my genetic father's younger brother) but he died a few years back now so I was told .. Robert was a twin with his sister (dizygotic twins) .. Thanks for taking an interest ..

Kind Regards



Kucinta Report 10 May 2015 23:02

There is an Augustus Herbert Tovey born in the London area, not Bristol :

Births Dec 1909 TOVEY Augustus Herbert Lambeth 1d 261

Family were London based:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census

3 Marsala Road Lewisham SE, Lewisham, London, England

Herbert Thomas Tovey Head Married Male 28 1883 Barnsbury Islington Carman
Mabel Tovey Wife Married Female 24 1887 Lambeth London
Augustus Herbert Tovey Son - Male 1 1910 Lambeth London <<<<<<<
Ernest Thomas Tovey Son - Male 0 1911 Lewisham London


Bob Report 11 May 2015 19:46

Kucinta, I replied to your PM in my inbox. But for anyone else interested, an army colleague recently deceased, was John Herbert Tovey, and I remember that his father was Augustus Herbert. (You don't forget names like that). They were living in New Addington, near Croydon, in the sixties. I have no other connection to the family, it was just a matter of interest. Bob


Paul Report 11 May 2015 20:03


FYI - its often useful to have unusual name permutations for family-finding purposes. I recall that do have access to old electoral lists going back to the 1920's or more I think ..So it is possible to nail down unusual names with addresses quite quickly ... Just a thought really .... It's kinda like paying respects from afar - looking up old departed friends family addresses . I know , I have done it too ..

Kind regards



Bob Report 12 May 2015 20:08

I have two ancestors, a g.g.gfather, and a Gt uncle with middle name Trafalgar.


Paul Report 13 May 2015 12:20

Any Nelson's in there Bob ? Just kidding :-)

In my gun quarter (Birmingham) ancestry I found a Henry Fluck Arnold ... His mom Sarah Arnold had him out of wedlock .. So I checked if there had been a local man named Henry Fluck who she could have had a lliason with - sure enough there had been but he left the area before his son was born ... Dirty dog .. :-)


Bob Report 13 May 2015 18:24

Diana Dors' name was really Fluck. There is a story that when she became famous and changed her name, she was being introduced at a fair or something that she was opening in her home town, by a local dignitary who had known her since childhood. He was so nervous about the name that he kept repeating over and over in his mind, Diana Dors, Diana Dors, Diana Dors. When came the moment, he blurted out, "Ladies and gentlemen, the person you have all been waiting for - Diana Clunt" Please don't RR this. Bob


Paul Report 14 May 2015 11:46

Wicked Bob .. She would have approved of that ... Ahhh the late Diana Dors though - interesting lady and paranoid about the tax man apparently - she is reportedly supposed to have had many accounts where she stashed away cash but under different secret names only accessible by a cipher and the use of secret codes to access them....

She was a brain for sure . So indeed was her US version - Marylyn Monroe ... Just a weakness for fatherly type men but then she had been a kid in a Children's home ..

Bless em all ..


Bob Report 14 May 2015 19:43

I would quite like a busty blond who had a weakness for fatherly type men! Oops, RR'd again.