Military Chat

Thanks Pat :-)

How exciting!! Have just replied to Alison's posting and given her my email address :-D

I have sent an e-mail to Tracy to let her know Alison in case she's not checking this thread. :-)

Hi. My father was Kenneth Archibald Pugh born in 1902. I may be able to fill in a few gaps.

Hi Pat

Enjoy reading all the updates you;re sending me, helps me understand the military system a lot more ;-) .

I tried to do some searches through The Gazette but must be doing something wrong BUT I had a chat with a older relative today and she recalls another story that passed through the family was that Ken was part of the Royal Irish Police Constabulary (Black & Tans) so I did a few searches and found a pension record for a Kenneth Pugh being employed in Dublin as a Constable, home address in Aug 1922 was for Roath Cardiff which fits with other family, also says he was a British Enlistment and paid through Cardiff, stamp on right side says record transferred to another ledger dated 14 Feb 1923 but can't find any other records. Will PM this to you in case you see something more that doesn't seem relevant to me ;-) . I'm in the middle of searching to find out if Margaret lived in Fakenham/Norfolk, will keep you posted.

Thanks again for all your help....
Tracy

I had a look yesterday for a Margaret Pugh married but without a Mr Pugh on the 1939 register and couldn't find 1. Didn't spend too much time on it though as I have friends staying and we went out.

I have a problem with the Fakenham marriage as it stands and the reason put forward for it. It could be the correct marriage and be in Fakenham being the parish of the bride who perhaps worked in London. I don't believe it relates however to the RAF. I'll explain later.

I do know however Fakenham is near at least 1 RAF base as I've lived on it, RAF West Raynham, and Norfolk had lots of airfields by the end of the war.

The problem is as I've already said he wasn't in the reserve on the 29th September 1939. There is a column for info relating to how the person could be helpful during the war.

examples, - my mother's friend has her husband with her and it states he's a soldier on leave. I found 1 of my school friends parents, who had just married and long before she was born. Her mother was a member of St John's another neighbour was a first aider. I have seen ex servicemen in this column.

My father at home with his parents is down as an ARP warden and I know he only did the job for a very short while. He had been working for English Electric for a year prior to the war and was put on 18 hr days, 6 days a week, within days of the war starting. English Electric Castle Bromwich was an extension of Lord Nuffield's car plant - except it wasn't, it was where they made all the parts, except the engines, for the spitfires. Dad stopped being an ARP warden as he didn't have the time.

I believe if Kenneth was already a reservist it would be in this column. Reservist may not have needed much training. Look at his uniform jacket, if you can see the left breast is there a badge? If there is please describe it or send me the picture and we may identify whether he was aircrew or ground crew. He could easily have had a clerical type job to release an aircrew officer to go back to a flying post.

When I was in the WRAF they used to say it took 20 ground crew to get 1 pilot in the air.

I believe he became a reservist after the register was taken so unless the bride was from Norfolk, I feel that's the only reason to be married there. Did he travel when younger and married away from UK?

The Gazette could give the answer to when he became a reservist so before you spend out I'd try to get as much info about his war service to help fill in more parts of the jigsaw.

:-)

Thanks Eringobragh

Reckon I must need new glasses, never seen this marriage before and a real possibility with you mentioning that RAF did training, etc there

Another one to add to the list of certificates, etc I need to order.

Hmmm if it's our Ken Pugh then he married round the same time as the 1939 Census/Register was taken, must have been after it as earlier in this post someone listed his entry in the register and no-one named Margaret was listed times like this I wish I had access to the 1939 Register ;-)

Have a great day
Tracy

Tracy..You said you could not find his 1st marriage..

I wonder if this is a possibility....

Marriages Sep 1939 (>99%)

Palmer Margaret E F Pugh Fakenham 4b 1128
Pugh Kenneth A Palmer Fakenham 4b 1128

Fakenham (Norfolk) was an area for RAF Training and Flying WW2

Thanks Pat

Have his birth details, will start saving my pennies ;-) .

Appreciate all your help as I now have answers to a few of the mysteries surrounding Ken's military service.

Cheers
Tracy

If you go further on you'll see it's either a service number or date of birth required. If you don't know his DOB buy his birth cert.

:-)

Thanks Pat

Just took a peek, might have to wait until I'm more financial plus I need to locate a service number :-S .

Cheers
Tracy

As he served after WW1 his docs are still with MOD and not online.

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html

for details on how to apply.

You're awesome Pat and please Thank OH also ;-)

Now to check the gazettes (nice to learn something new) and from there maybe find his military record.

Have a great day
Tracy

I have now seen the cap and it's a commissioned officer in the RAF. It's the cap of a Wing Commander and below.

It is a cap with the crown of King George Vl so he served between 1936 and 1952. Most likely a wartime reservist.

:-)

Awsome!!! Thanks Heaps, keeping my fingers, toes & eyes crossed :-S

;-)

Yes PM me I have my OH who did 25 yrs RAF and did some time with the navy so I'll show him. Pity about the sleeves.

:-)

Thanks for the extra info PatinCyprus, you really have gone the extra mile with my post. Handy having your WRAF background!!

A lot of info for me to take in so will go through it and also look through the link you sent for The Gazette. A while ago I did find a couple of temporary promotions to Sub Lieutenant during WW2 for Royal Naval Volunteer Reserves (14 Dec 1944 & 15 Jun 1945) under Kenneth Pugh in the UK Navy Lists 1888 - 1970 on Ancestry but without finding his military record it's hard to confirm if these are for my Kenneth Archibald Pugh. Feel like a cat chasing it's tail lol ;-) :-S

Cheers
Tracy

Edit - Meant to say the photo I've got of Kenneth doesn't show his jacket cuffs, it's waist upwards so just shows front of jacket and hat...don't want to overload you with my post but happy to PM photo to you if you'd like to have a look?

Just read through this thread again - he would have only been 16 at the end of the 1st world war so he either lied to get in, which I know happened, or his service was between the wars. If he served during WW1 at such a young age I can't see him getting a high rank.

He could however have been a reserve post WW1 and risen to a Wg Cdr reservist. He however isn't a reservist in the 1939 register and he was only 37.

When officers are commissioned or promoted it is Gazetted, that is published in The Gazette perhaps he may be in there. I don't know if reservists were published but he would have his majesty's commission so it is possible.


https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

I am ex WRAF.

:-)

Thanks PatinCyprus

Interesting read for sure, would the same ranking be awarded to UK RNVR (Royal Naval Volunteer Reserves?

And could someone of such a young age be awarded this ranking? Even in 1918 Ken would only have been 16, perhaps a little older if he lied about his age when enlisting.

Could still have been in the navy

On 1 April 1918, the newly created RAF adopted its officer rank titles from the British Army, with Royal Naval Air Service commanders (titled as wing commanders) and Royal Flying Corps lieutenant colonels becoming lieutenant colonels in the RAF. In response to the proposal that the RAF should use its own rank titles, it was suggested that the RAF might use the Royal Navy's officer ranks, with the word "air" inserted before the naval rank title. For example, the rank that later became wing commander would have been air commander.

This is part of the history of the RAF Wikipedia.

Both naval commanders and wing commanders have rings denoting rank on the cuffs of their jacket sleeves.

I don't know how many for a naval commander but wing commander RAF is 3 rings of the same breadth.

It is a senior rank being the fifth rank up. In war with loses it could be reached reasonably quickly but in peacetime you'd be in your mid- late 30s.

Edit - Found the naval rank, 3 rings of same breadth, top one with a small circle and above the circle an aeroplane.

Thanks Eringobragh

The Wing Commanders cap is the closest but once again not really the same, older family member reckons that's what Ken was but have my doubts due to Ken's age during WW1 and he looks way too young for photo to have been taken in WW2 :-(