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WW1 Memorial Plaque

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

AndyTG

AndyTG Report 8 Nov 2017 22:44

Today I received a WW1 Memorial Plaque known as “the Dead Man’s Penny” of a William Barton. Our family William Barton 21/6/1883 - 14/10/1918. Service No 35284. Its about a 1 in 20 chance it was given to my wife's great great uncle's family? The seller brought it at an auction and cannot provide any details. The number 86 is stamped behind the lion's back leg are any records via this number that may indicate which family of William Barton received this originally?

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 9 Nov 2017 00:17

I don't think there will be records that have anything to do with the number stamped on the "Penny".

This is what is recorded on the Commonwealth Graves Commission website:-

Private
BARTON, W

Service Number 35284

Died 14/10/1918

4th Bn.
Worcestershire Regiment

Father of Miss B. M. Barton, of 147, Well St., Hockley, Birmingham.

I think since it is his daughter that is mentioned and not his wife that perhaps his daughter was the one to have originally received the "Penny" - although I honestly don't know for certain.

Kath. x

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 9 Nov 2017 07:10

http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2540

("His wife had died the year before and his next of kin was Miss Beatrice Barton, his 10 year old daughter")

(he is on above from google search)

Chris :)

(if below)

Birth
BARTON, BEATRICE MAY (GRIMSLEY)
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 367

Birth
BARTON, IVY (GRIMSLEY)
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 345


Marriages Dec 1904 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
Barton William Birmingham 6d 241
Grimsley Beatrice Birmingham 6d 241


1911 (Find My Past)
Harriet Grimsley Head Widow Female - 63 1848 Netherwitakre Warwickshire
Beatrice Barton Daughter Married Female Pen Worker 26 1885 Newhall Hill Bham
William Barton Son - In - Law Married Male Jeweller 27 1884 Bridge St Bham
Beatrice May Barton Grand - Daughter - Female - 3 1908 Lozells Bham
Ivy Barton Grand - Daughter - Female - 2 1909 Lozells Bham
Albert Ernest Barnes Boarder Single Male General Printer 36 1875 Kingsholm Gloster
Eliza Stevens Boarder Widow Female - 79 1832 St Peters Worcester
Address 89 Wilton St Aston
Parish Aston Manor
County Warwickshire
Census reference RG14 PN18277 RG78 PN1102 RD385 SD4 ED8 SN269


1891 (Find My Past)
George Barton Head Widower Male 44 1847 Gun Smith -
Harry Barton Son Single Male 21 1870
Nelly Barton Daughter Single Female 18 1873 Jeweller -
Charles W Barton Son Single Male 16 1875 Chaser Jewellers Apprentice -
Florence Barton Daughter - Female 13 1878 Errand Girl -
Elizabeth Barton Daughter - Female 11 1880 Scholar England
William Barton Son - Male 7 1884 Scholar
Street Paddington Street
County Warwickshire
Registration district Birmingham
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 2388
Folio 112
Page 22


1901 (Find My Past)
George Barton Head Widower Male 54 1847 Gun Percussioner Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Florence Barton Daughter Single Female 23 1878 Jeweller Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Elizabeth Barton Daughter Single Female 21 1880 House Keeper Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
William Barton Son Single Male 17 1884 Jeweller Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Ada Barton Daughter Single Female 14 1887 Cotton Card Room Hand Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
House Court, 4, Paddington Street, Birmingham, Warwickshire

(above Address as 1904 Marriage)


All UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 (Ancestry)

(on above, To whom Authorised. Bro. Charles W.)


All Birmingham, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1937 (Ancestry)

(1904 Marriage on above, his Father, George Barton occ. Gun Smith. Her Father, William Grimsley occ. Packing Case Maker)


All Birmingham, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1912 (Ancestry)

Ivy Barton
(Birth Date) 17 Mar 1910 (Baptism Date) 30 Mar 1910 Birmingham, St Matthias
William, Beatrice. (Abode, 89, Wilton St. occ. Porter)


Deaths Sep 1912 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
GRIMSLEY Harriett 67 Aston 6d 301


All Birmingham, England, Church of England Burials, 1813-1964 (Ancestry)

(her Burial on above, July 9th, Abode, 89 Wilton Street)


https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1325274

KathleenBell

KathleenBell Report 9 Nov 2017 11:36

If you have a look here:-

http://www.researchingww1.co.uk/ww1-memorial-plaque

and scroll about half way down the page underneath the heading "Making the Memorial Plaque" it says that the number between the lion's rear leg and tail shows that the plaque was cast at Woolwich and the number indicates the worker who worked on it.

Kath. x

AndyTG

AndyTG Report 9 Nov 2017 14:12

Thank you Kathleen & Chris, things to follow up (Worcs Reg message board) and good to understand the number on the plaque.

Ivy Barton passed away 1927 confirmed by death certificate, and believe Beatrice May passed away 1991 (never ordered the death certificate). I paid my respects at his grave in 2016 and laid messages from 2 legs of his sisters descendants family. One concerning fact of the extra records the CWGC have been providing in recent years are that his Grave registration Date of death is 18/10/18 yet his headstone and announcement summary say 14/10/18. This problem of conflicting dates also occurs on another of my wife great uncles!


https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/162664/BARTON,%20W

AndyTG

AndyTG Report 15 Jan 2018 19:24

Thank you Elizabeth, since I posted, query through birth & death certificates I have now confirmed Beatrice May Millington (Barton) his daughter passed away 1957 of Purulent Peritonitis due to strangulated hernia, not 1991. I have just requested the CWGC web site, if they used his plot ref instead of his actually date of death in error for 99 years and if they can update his headstone! As I visited his grave in 2016 and laid messages from 3 descendant legs of his siblings, its an example of more knowledge is sometimes not a good thing?

The automated reply says "Thank you for your enquiry, our team will be in touch with you within the next 24 hours and will make every effort to provide you with a full response within ten working days. Occasionally, some enquiries are more complex and may take a little longer to respond to if we have to refer them to other departments within CWGC." Let see what they say?

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Report 20 Jan 2018 03:33

found a typed war diary for 14/10/18. which gives a very detailed account of the day. it was a fierce day of battle with the 4th Worcester regt along with several other regt taking part, they lost 3 top ranking officers,11 soldiers and 82 wounded, 28 missing.
also when I had another look at the original grave reg on CWGC there is no army number on it and the name has been changed to T Barton and the date to 18/10/18
So I think the 14/10/18 is likely to be the right one, hope you get to the bottom of this

mgnv

mgnv Report 24 Jan 2018 15:10

Worcestershire Regiment
Battalions of the Regular Army
4th Battalion
August 1914 : in Meiktila in Burma.
Returned to England, landing at Avonmouth 1 February 1915.
February 1915 : came under orders of 88th Brigade in 29th Division.
Moved to Leamington Spa.
Sailed from Avonmouth 21 March 1915 for Gallipoli, going via Egypt. Landed at Cape Helles on 25 April 1915.
January 1916 : evacuated from Gallipoli to Egypt.
20 March 1916 : landed at Marseilles for service in France.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/worcestershire-regiment/

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/29th-division/


The Final Advance in Flanders
28 September-11 November 1918, the Final Advance in Flanders. The British Second Army and Belgian Army combine and finally break out of the Ypres salient. More ground is gained in a day that in the entire Passchendaele offensive of a year before. The offensive continues through fighting in the Courtrai area and eventually well across the Scheldt.
Phase: the Battle of Courtrai, 14 – 19 October 1918
Second Army (Plumer)
II Corps (Jacob)
9th (Scottish) Division
29th Division
36th (Ulster) Division.
X Corps (Stephens)
30th Division
34th Division.
XV Corps (de Lisle)
14th (Light) Division.
XIX Corps (Watts)
35th Division
41st Division.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/the-final-advance-in-flanders/





Elizabeth posted on unit war diaries earlier on the thread

On 18/1/18 ay 19:54, I posted on finding unit war diaries on another thread:
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/military_chat/thread/1369080

As a starting point, you could use the search screen for:
British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1262
making the obvious changes to target records of interest to you.

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Report 24 Jan 2018 16:12

interesting fact he was buried in Dadizeele New British Cemetery, it is a post-war Cemetery. It was started when graves from smaller burial grounds in the area and the surrounding 1918 battlefields were brought here for re-burial after the war .There are just over 1000 graves and all but a handful are from September to November 1918

AndyTG

AndyTG Report 24 Jan 2018 23:07

Thank you Elizabeth I will read all the links this week. I had a reply from the CWGC on Monday. Martin sent me some on-line material including War Gratuity payment of £13 17s & £9 to one of his brothers Charles in 1919. That £1000 in todays money, I hope he passed it on to those raising Williams daughters. not convinced by his answers but unless their was specific reference in a war diary, you hope the correction of the grave registration record was correct? His reply below.

Having investigated this case, using sources available to me, I have been unable to find any documentation that disputes the date of death we presently hold for 35284 Private William Barton. (I have attached this documentation for your records).

I must also explain that it is not uncommon to find discrepancies on our grave registration reports as these were our first working documents and the information thereon was later verified by the service authorities and amended as required to produce our final registers (later scanned to form our database).

In this instance it is likely that the 18th was a burial date which was later amended to the 14th on later documents after verification.

If you still doubt our information we would require documentary evidence to be supplied, in addition to what I have found, supporting your claim. I have attached a copy of our amendment form which highlights the sort of documentation we would accept and the more you can provide the better.

I trust this alleviates any concerns.

Kind Regards

Martin Skelly
CWGC Records Department

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Report 25 Jan 2018 01:22

if they sent you the full entry of his war gratuity you will see it states he was killed in action in Belgium on 14/10/18