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John Cadell MacDonald

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Dee

Dee Report 29 Dec 2008 18:29

Hi

I am experiencing difficulties researching John Cadell MacDonald, born 6/7/1898 at 119 South Street, Perth.
Mother Catherine MacDonald.

Although father's name was given on marriage certificate as David Gardiner, I suspect that it was not the case; I believe that his father was John Cadell as it was rumoured that Catherine was a servant for the Cadell family who were farmers.

As I am not familiar with researching Scottish ancestors, I would be grateful for any assistance or advice here, as it is a bit of a brick wall.

Thanks

Hampshire Hog

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 18:39

I'm no more familiar, so I can only ask questions. ;)

Do you know who David Gardiner was?

Have you found Catherine in censuses, possibly in the Cadell household or nearby?

In my own experience, a middle name standing for the father's surname is common. My gr-grmother was a domestic servant and her first child, born in 1890 before the mother's marriage, had a middle name that we understood to be the surname of the household where the mother was employed (whether she was the child of the head of household or a son, we were never sure).

♥Betty Boo from Dundee♥

♥Betty Boo from Dundee♥ Report 29 Dec 2008 18:40

No Year Surname Forename Sex District City/County/MR GROS Data Image Extract
1 1898 MCDONALD JOHN CADDELL M PERTH /PERTH 387/00 0465 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

Note spelling Caddell and McDonald!!!!!!!!!
On Scotlands People also sent you a PM too.

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 18:43

I can't identify Catherine and John in the 1901 census.

Can you provide any more details -- her date and place of birth, her parents' names, had she married by 1901?

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 18:46

Yes, McDonald was going to be my next guess. ;)

1901:

Name: John W McDonald
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1898
Relationship: Great Grandchild (Grandchild)
Where born: Perth, Perthshire

Name: Catherine McDonald
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Mother's Name: Agnes
Where born: Perth, Perthshire
Occupation: Ink Worker

Address: 90 South St

Agnes McDonald 46
Lizzie McDonald 27
Agnes McDonald 22
Catherine McDonald 19
Mabel M McDonald 8
Peter W McDonald 5
John W McDonald 3
William M McDonald 10 mos



EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 18:47

No match comes up on a search for 119 South in Perth in 1901.

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 18:52

And now this John Cadell, whom I can't find in 1891 or 1901.

There is this household in 1891:

Name: John Caddel
Age: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relationship: Brother
Occupation: Farmer's Brother

Civil Parish: Moulin
County: Perthshire
Address: Coilvoulan

Alex Caddel 63
John Caddel 57
Jean Caddel 49
Jean McRaw 45
Jane McKenzie 16
Alex Ritchie 20
Isabela McDiarmid 17

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 19:09

That's presumably the right household. In 1881, Alex Caddel's details are:

Address: Coilvoulin Farm House
Occupation: Farmer (Of 76 Acres Of Which 68 Arable Employing 2 Men And 3 Women)

But other than the John Caddel born abt 1834, I'm not seeing a John. Is he the one? If so, we would likely be looking at a rather nasty case of exploitation. In 1897, he would have been over 60, and Catherine only 15 or so.

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 19:12

Is this the David Gardiner in question, in 1901?

Name: David Gardiner
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relationship: Son
Mother's Name: Jane Hendry
Where born: Tibbermore, Perthshire
Civil Parish: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: 8 Rosario Terrace Jeanfield
Occupation: Cleaners Folder Dyeworks


... Dee??

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 19:27

Dee, I'll just go ahead and do the copy job from your PMs that I suggested. ;)


Hi Evie

Thanks for your response and assistance.

I have no idea who David Gardiner was, if he even existed. He did not appear on the "birth cert" (not sure whether it is a proper document, my relative obtained it through Scottish People). No father's name was given.

Catherine also had another daughter named Ann Jean Urquart, on her marriage certificate father's name was given as William Urquart. Annie was born c1897 in Perth.


The 1901 entries do sound promising, although Annie does not show up in this entry. Also John's middle name was not W... not to say that it isn't the same one though, changes were often made. What do you think Evie.

Thanks again Evie for your assistance; I am not familiar with Scottish research and feel a bit out of my depth, so I am grateful for any input.



What you got from scotlandspeople would be "official". The censuses are at Ancestry. Other than those two sources, I'm not familiar with it either. ;)

Did your Catherine ever marry? Her parents' names would be in that record, to confirm whether that 1901 household is the right one.

Dee

Dee Report 29 Dec 2008 19:56

I am uncertain as to whether Catherine ever married, she had two illegitimate children, Anne Urquart c1897 and John Caddell McDonald in 1898 both born in Perth.

By the time John was 15 he entered the army, and as he was under age, it was considered this was when he changed his name to John Gardiner to hide his real identity; whether this name was made up or what, no-one knows. If his father was David Gardiner, it doesn't make sense that he was named John Caddell McDonald.

He married in 1926 in Chelmsford Cathederal, but I do not know when he came to England, presumably when he was in the army.

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 29 Dec 2008 20:38

Ah. He married as John Gardiner?

And Annie was registered as, and went by, Urquart?

Was John in WWI? Have you looked for any service records? There are a gazillion John Gardiners in the WWI Medal Rolls Index at Ancestry, for instance. Would he have been in a Scottish unit? A half a gazillion of them ...

For the British Army WWI Service Records database, you can't even search by DOB, if he was faking it.


If he married as Gardiner, he may have simply made up a father. Or he may have changed his surname to the name of the person he understood to be his real father.

alviegal

alviegal Report 29 Dec 2008 22:24

These are the peop[e living at 199 South Street , Perth. This is John's birth place according to his birth certificate and he was definately illegitimate. In those days people seemed to move quite frequently, often just a few doors away.


1901 Scotland Census
about John Knight
Name: John Knight
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relationship: Brother
Mother's Name: Bridget
Gender: Male
Where born: Perth, Perthshire
Registration Number: 387
Registration district: Perth
Civil Parish: Perth Middle Church
County: Perthshire
Address: 199 South St
Occupation: Railway Lamp Cleaner
ED: 30
Household schedule number: 199
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1901_126
Household Members:
Name Age
Martin Knight 29
Bridget Knight 60
John Knight 23



Liz

alviegal

alviegal Report 29 Dec 2008 22:30

1901 for John Caddell. I see there is a young MacDonald girl working for him. A sister of Catherine? Do you know where Catherine (Kate as she signed herself on the birth certificate) was born?


1901 Scotland Census
about John Caddell
Name: John Caddell
Age: 67
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Moulin, Perthshire
Registration Number: 384/1
Registration district: Moulin
Civil Parish: Moulin
County: Perthshire
Address: Killavoulin Farm
Occupation: Farmer
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 12
Line: 14
Roll: CSSCT1901_123
Household Members:
Name Age
John Caddell 67
Jane Caddell 59 sister, b Moulin
Jane McRaw 55
James Anderson 28
Angus McLeod 17
Margaret MacDonald 18 Kilmuir, Inverness shire

alviegal

alviegal Report 29 Dec 2008 22:38

This is very strange, This Catherine is born in the same place as the young girl above and she also has a son called John, I wonder if she fits in somewhere? I can't find her in previous records. No record for a William Turner and Catherine Caddell marrying either.


1901 Scotland Census
about Catherine Caddell
Name: Catherine Caddell
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : William
Gender: Female
Where born: Killerwuir, Invernesshire
Registration Number: 387
Registration district: Perth
Civil Parish: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: 10 Paul St
Occupation: Dye Worker
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 15
Line: 8
Roll: CSSCT1901_124
Household Members:
Name Age
William Turner 55 b Leven, Fifeshire, shoemaker
Catherine Caddell 32
John Caddell 2 b Perth

Dee

Dee Report 30 Dec 2008 15:46

Hi Elizabeth

I have been pondering this all afternoon too. Some enigma, eh?

Looks like you are getting warmer though...

It is a bit of a coincidence that Catherine is named Caddell, with a son named John aged 2, alas there is no sign of Annie though. Also, looking at the information available, there are not many other options. I am sure Annie is a year older than John, but there are no websites covering births to check. I got her dob from her marriage cert, not to say it is accurate though.

I have flu at the moment, so I am not going to use Scottish People until I have all my faculties back!! Don't want to waste credits, and I am unfamiliar with the working of the website.

Thanks for your help Elizabeth, I am so grateful.

Trouble is I have nothing concrete to go by. I already have a birth cert of sort from Scottish People, but because Catherine was not married, it does not give enough details to double check anything, thus I cannot go back confidently; most of the info seems plausible, but I cannot g'tee it connects, and do not want to go gaily up the wrong track just because it sounds right.

I do feel that Catherine Caddell is the same person though, but cannot understand where Annie is. I will have to find Annie's birth and go from there. It is also a coincidence that there is a McDonald girl working as a servant with the Caddells, like you say, possibly a sister of Catherine's. I wonder if Catherine took the name of Urquhart after Annie's birth?

I still feel that the Gardiner name was only invented to get John into the army, and as he was going under that name, he had to stick with it!

Thanks again, and a Happy New Year to you.

Kindest regards

Dee

Dee

Dee Report 30 Dec 2008 15:53

Hi Elizabeth

Just re-reading your email, it was 119 South Street, not 199, was that just a typo?

Would you be able to look up a marriage between William Turner and Catherine McDonald please? You said you couldn't find one for William Turner and Catherine Caddell, but that was probably not her real name.

Thanks again for your help, Elizabeth.

I guess I am going to have to wait until 1911 census, but knowing how things are going that will throw a dozen more complications out!!

Kind regards

Dee

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 30 Dec 2008 16:07

Scotlandspeople has this marriage:

1898
CADDELL THOMAS
MCDONALD CATHERINE
PERTH /PERTH
387/00 0192

I spent a credit for the search results, but you can spend your own 5 credits when you're feeling better to get the image. ;)

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 30 Dec 2008 16:12

Also, this bit from the 1901 census that alviegal found:


Name: Catherine Caddell
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : William
William Turner 55
Catherine Caddell 32
John Caddell 2 b Perth


really doesn't make sense -- if she's his spouse, why are their surnames different?

You can look at the original census image at scotlandspeople. Ancestry may have done one of its common screw-up. One possibility that springs to mind is that Catherine is "wife", but not of William Turner.

Turner could be in a completely different household. If Catherine was in the next household and was the wife of the head, but the head was not present on census night, Ancestry may have done what it did in hundreds of cases in the English censuses, especially 1891 -- just attached her to the nearest male head of household. One of my gr-grfathers acquired a spare wife that way.

That's a bit of an off chance, but it's worth checking.

EvieBeavie

EvieBeavie Report 30 Dec 2008 16:22

In 1891, this is the only Tho* Cad*l in the vicinity:


Name: Thomas Caddell
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Catherine
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 387
Registration district: Perth
Civil Parish: Perth Middle Church
Town: Perth
County: Perthshire
Address: 69 Watergate
Occupation: Unemployed

Thomas Caddell 38
Catherine Caddell 34
Patrick Caddell 5
Mary Ann Caddell 3
Catherine Caddell 1

Name: Catherine Caddell
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: Springburn, Lanark

- she doesn't match up with the 1901 Catherine:

Name: Catherine Caddell
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : William
Gender: Female
Where born: Killerwuir, Invernesshire