Find Ancestors

You're probably right. I've not needed to research much in the US, so am not familiar with their tactics.

Just discovered there is a Society of Cutlers in Sheffield, maybe they have a record of a lowly Wilkes Herbert. Not looked for them yet (heard of them less than 1 minute ago), but as he was an apprentice he might be listed somewhere. Off to look.

Graveyard next.

Margaret

Nothing from the Society of Cutlers. All I could find was references to Masons (i.e. Freemasons), no ordinary plebs like mine.

Margaret

Think I should rename the thread Clutching at Straws.

http://freespace.virgin.net/a.data/The%20History%20of%20Cutlery.htm

?

Another reason for the success of Sheffield's cutlery industry must be due to the system of organisation. Under George Talbot, Lord of the Manor of Sheffield, the cutlers operated under a system of guilds, with the Lord of the Manor at the head. Unfortunately, when George Talbot's successor died in 1617, the guild system fell down, as there was nobody to take over in the position of authority. The Sheffield cutlers were so concerned by the disorganisation, that 4 years later, they presented a bill to Parliament to form a new controlling body. This Act of Parliament formed the Company of Cutlers of Hallamshire (which covers the whole Sheffield area) which was establised in 1624, and under this new authority, the cutlery industry flourished. The company is still around today, and although it lost it's authority in the early 19th Century, it still has some important functions, and is relevant today in Sheffield.


This seems to be it now:

http://www.cutlers-hallamshire.org.uk/

Was that what you were looking at?

Hey -

http://www.cutlers-hallamshire.org.uk/html/heritage/collections/

The survival of the Company’s archives from 1624 is remarkable, which contain biographical details of more than 30,000 apprentices and freemen to 1814, as well as its accounts, minutes of meetings and administration of its assets and charities.


oh, crap. 1814.

If there's any chance he had rellies in the trade?

Thanks for finding this Janey, but as you say, 1814, crap. Probably won't help for Wilkes Herbert, but I do have lots of other cutlers in Sheffield, so will try it for them.

Margaret

Margaret.
At the beginning of this quest to find Wilks you said you found Wilkes Herben 1821 Yorkshire and dismissed him because your Wilks is on the 1841 census as not of the County.

Now we know how unreliable census info can be.Is it possible the enumerator made a mistake and Wilks was born in Yorkshire?
The marriage cert you sent me for Wilks. The father could be JW Herbert.
Was Wilks living at Pond Lane in 1841?

Just a thought CLUTCHING AT STRAWS

William Herbert married 15th aug 1797 Edgton Shropshire .spouse Martha Wilkes

No, he was not at Pond Street in 1841. Looks like Rough Bank.

Straws need clutching. So where did you find the marriage of William Herbert and Martha Wilkes? IGI? Off to look, but thought I already had. Perhaps the wrong time span.

Margaret

Oh it is a submitted record, which I tend to ignore. Is there some way of contacting the submitter? Never done that before cos never been so desperate!

Margaret

There's possible confirmation of that marriage.

Search in the IGI for birth, parents William Herbert and Martha, Shropshire, 1790-1830, say.

Only the one. (And none in Yorkshire; I checked.)

JOHN HERBERT
Christening: 23 FEB 1799 Edgton, Shropshire, England
Father: WILLIAM HERBERT
Mother: MARTHA
Batch No.: P017411

So the submitted marriage record seems reasonably credible -- that baptism record is an extracted parish record, for the same place, 2 years after the marriage.

And if that John's middle name were William, after his father, he would be JW Herbert.

I have to run, but you'll want to have a look at this household in 1851:


Elizabeth Herbert 56 - born Chiserley, Shropshire
Mary Herbert 25 - born Edgton
Ann Herbert 15
Samuel Wilks 90 - father of Elizabeth, born Bildows, Shropshire
Edward Wilks 50 - brother of Elizabeth, born Walsall, Shropshire
John Thomas 40
Ricd Groves 28
William Hamonds 16

Civil parish: Edgton
County/Island: Shropshire
Registration district: Clun

Agreed the submitted marriage (William Herbert and Martha Wilkes) looks okay and can only find one child, John b 1799. Marriage of John Herbert to Elizabeth Wilkes (oh heck!) 10/7/1823, Hopesay, Shropshire, likely the Elizabeth on the 1851 census. Birth of Elizabeth Wilkes 16/8/1795 Claverley, father Samuel, mother Mary (Clarke - submitted), again can only find one child, no brother Edward.

Elizabeth found in 1871 (Mother of Margaret Valentine age 40), death Jun 1879, Ludlow, age 83.

Edward possibly imprisoned 1853.

Very frustrting to see all these Wilkes and Herberts, but no Wilkes Herbert.

Margaret

One child of John Herbert and Elizabeth Wilkes - Martha, 1823, Hopesay, Shropshire - extracted.

Confirmation of the line through the names, but obviously, many missing births in all generations!


In 1841, Elizabeth Wilkes Herbert is already widowed:

Elizabeth Herbert 40
Elizabeth Herbert 7
Mary Herbert 12
Margaret Herbert 12
John Herbert 9
Anne Herbert 5


It does just sound so nice and neat that their first child would have been Wilkes Herbert, doesn't it? ;)


And it would match with the possibility of the WH's birthplace in 1841 - out of county - being actually accurate, and his subsequent declared birthplace just being birthplace of convenience.

It would indeed fit nicely, if we could find him!

Not sure what you mean by his subsequent place of birth - I haven't found him other than in 1841.

Margaret

Oops, sorry - imperfect recollection was that he appeared with a Yorkshire birthplace somewhere, hence the questioning of the out of county birthplace in 1841.

Margaret.
Anyway of checking who is living at Pond Lane in 1841 since this is where Wilks was living when he married in 1842.

There might be family

Let's go back to the "WILKS HERBEN" in your very first post.

WILKS HERBEN
Christening: 13 SEP 1821 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBEN
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131


Searching with the parents' names as HERBERT, we find:

ELIZAB. HERBERT
Christening: 10 JUN 1823 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBERT
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131


So HERBEN really is pretty certainly HERBERT.

And I think that just plain likely is your Wilkes.

There is a John Herbert + Ellin Gilbertson marriage in 1825 in Escrick that matches with most of the other John Herbert + Ellen births, so that wouldn't likely be the right couple.

However there are two births in Wheldrake (sorry, the geography is foreign to me) that could be relevant:

5. ELIZABETH HERBERT
Christening: 24 MAY 1831 Wheldrake, Yorkshire, England
6. WILLIAM HERBERT
Christening: 05 JUN 1827 Wheldrake, Yorkshire, England


... Okay, Cawood and Wheldrake are less than 10 miles apart, Cawood being southwest toward Leeds from Wheldrake.

A John Herbert + Eleanor couple did end up in Sheffield, for info:


1841:

John Herbert 50
Eleanor Herbert 49
Mary Ann Herbert 20
Sarah Herbert 10
Emma Herbert 6
Eleanor Herbert 2


1851:

John Herbert 61
Mary Herbert 36
Emma Herbert 17
Ellen Herbert 12


That John was a bricklayer.


The IGI has 3 births in Leeds, 1814-1830, with mother variously shown as Elanor, Eleanor and Ellen. (I imagine they are all the same couple - whether they are the one above, or that one is another one, possibly the parents of that "Wilks Herben", dunno.) When looking for Ellens it is wise to count Eleanors, and vice versa.

Janey, it was the Wilkes Herben born Yorkshire.

Quinsgran, I don't know how to search for Pond Lane in 1841. A couple of online indexes, but the best gives me Class, Piece, Book and Folio, whereas the census wants Piece, Folio and Page - and my various combinations don't fit. The online index doesn't actually have Pond Lane, but it must be around Pond Street/Hill - if I can find it!

Will come back to the Herbens asap Janey.

Margaret

Margaret.
I no longer subscribe to Ancestry so cant help. However you can check the enumerators district and find where Pond Lane is. Its a bit of a trawl because you dont know the area.

"Janey, it was the Wilkes Herben born Yorkshire."

Uh ... yes ...

The one I reproduced, which you hadn't initially done:

WILKS HERBEN
Christening: 13 SEP 1821 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBEN
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131


As I'd hoped I explained, I then assumed it was supposed to say HERBERT, and looked for births to JOHN HERBERT and ELLEN, and found what I would be pretty confident is that WILKS HERBEN's sister ELIZAB.:

ELIZAB. HERBERT
Christening: 10 JUN 1823 Cawood, Yorkshire, England
Father: JOHN HERBERT
Mother: ELLEN
Batch No.: C109131

Same batch number, same parents, same location, close in age, HERBEN is a mistranscribed HERBERT.


He may not be your Wilkes Herbert, but he was definitely a Wilks Herbert. And that one would have been a few months shy of 20 at the 1841 census, so would appear as "15".


Unfortunately, in 1881 (when you can search by address) there is no "Pond" anything in Sheffield. It might have been possible to trace a household back to 1871 at the same location, and then a nearby household back to 1861, and so on back to 1841. I've done it. ;) But without the identity of some household at some time on the right street, it becomes impossible.

--- no, Ancestry changed its mind. There is a Pond Street in Sheffield in 1881. Unfortunately, it's one of those streets with courts and houses within courts. Almost 1500 names answer to Pond Street, Sheffield, in 1881 ...