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I have to say you folks are impressive. A genealogical A Team!

I also must keep saying thank you for your continued work on this (yes- very annoying chap- Bruce!)

Can I just recap as I got lost somewhere:

We are pretty sure of Harriett Phillips born of Joshua
1891 with parents
1901 parents without her, her with F(u)llers. Daughter in law.
1911 with new hubby George McP

Albert H- Harriets son to a Fuller- poss William H???? The Sept 1898 WH Fuller and Harriet Phillips W Ham 4a 350 marriage

No record of a Frank/Fred or WG Fuller newsagent apart from WG Plumstead newsagent in census. But if Frank/Fred knew his grandad was a newsagent in 1911 and William (his dad?) had worked with him prior to his death then that would make sense of his assumption. So his dad would be William H Fuller not William George Fuller..the George, as you have said, possibly being a tribute to his McP relationships, or just a childs multiple family confusion...

I will try to find out grandads death cert info from rellies to further investigate him, but my feeling now is we can expect more handed down stories rather than facts. Lets hope not.

Thank you all for your continued help.

So many unexpected turns in this subject. My paternal line has been quite easy down the male grandparents side as would be expected with one surname. My paternal grandmother is expectedly more difficult. But on my maternal side its been the other way round. My grandmother Edith Emily has been quite easy all things considered but the Fullers....urrrghh!

BTW Bruce I did mention that I didnt know who Frank/Fred was raised with. The rellies do think he was with his mum at some point. They certainly didnt lose contact as she was at his 1927 wedding.

One final thought, continuing the "was he a Fuller at all" theme, is that when Harriets WH Fuller husband went to war, or just died, did Harriett find solace in a pre George McP affair with a Mr unknown? This would make my family's illigitimate recollections correct. Maybe Harriett told Fred later about the affair (for it to become family lore) but perhaps she never knew the mans surname. Possibly even a one night stand or a crime against her. I might do a search on here to see whether Percival G or the other Fuller children have descendants on here that may have some info!

All the best folks. I look forward to your replies.

Rich

I have just searched the 1901 on here for Henry and Harriett Fuller/Faller using surname and forename variants and....nothing?

Are you folks using the same database?

Rich

Side Issue: The previous divorce of Edwards and Phillips was mentioned as being unlikely for our search due to its whereabouts but I am not convinced of that. Obviously it doesnt necessarily fit by any means but Harriet couldve moved away with said chap and started an affair with W H on a visit home or perhaps he visited her (if they already knew each other). The (oft wrong) family lore states Harriett was thrice wed. McP, Fuller and one other possibly, from what we now know. The place on the documentation is Strood (cant see county) -but did you see it, Bruce, when you looked? If I am not being daft with this I might hunt for marriage cert to check if Harriets parents are the same. (Of course I dont have a date on the record which could discount it entirely)

Hi Rich. I think both Dee and I are using the Ancestry records which most people consider to be a better deal than Genes. I don't know what database Genes takes you too but you could try searching for example for Albert H with no surname just using his date and place of birth.

For that divorce that fascinates you, lol, this is what I said in the other thread

************

I have found the divorce information at the archives website.

Divorce Court File: 18743. Appellant: Joseph Edwards. Respondent: Harriet Alice Edwards. Co-respondent: William Fuller. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. . Divorce Court File: 18743. Appellant: Joseph Edwards. Respondent: Harriet Alice Edwards. Date: 1897.

But if that was the Harriet who married George McPherson, she should have given Edwards as her surname, not Fuller.

(Then I put the Phillips Fuller marriage we now assume was the right people. There is no Harriet Edwards William Fuller marriage that would have made that Harriet the one who married McP as Fuller. And that Harriet's father would not have been Joshua Phillips.)

I think this is the marriage of the couple who divorced.

Marriages Sep 1893 (>99%)
Croucher Harriett Alice Strood 2a 926
Edwards Joseph Strood 2a 926

************

Strood is in Kent. There just isn't a Phillips in that case. Harriet Croucher married Joseph Edwards and he divorced her for adultery with a William Fuller. They are in the completely wrong place and William Fuller is a common name.

This is that Harriet's birth

Births Mar 1875
Croucher Harriet Alice Maidstone 2a 601

Thanks Bruce- sideline deleted from my head! lol

Do you agree with my previous summing up post just prior to the sideline?

All the best

Rich

Yes for sure Rich I agree with the summing up. And what would we do if we did not have these difficult ancestors? If none of them had any secrets it would be like a paint by numbers but this way we get to mix the paints and paint the picture ourselves, lol.

lol Bruce..you are so right..with a caveat..which is as long as we find them in the end anyway! lol. I think some of the tentative conclusions we are entertaining aren't being liked by some family members, when I broached the possibles this afternoon.
I am waiting for the death cert info and when I have this hopefully we'll know more. I am going to order the birth cert I think might be right as well just in case to save time.
Regards
Rich

Do you know about when and where he died Rich? We might be able to identify the death in the index without waiting to see whether someone has the certificate and that could give the birthdate.

Hi Bruce.

I'm waiting for the (not always reliable lol) rellies to give me that info. I'll post it when it arrives.

Rich

Hi all

Going back to: why was Fred called Frank?
It occurred to me my mum is Frances and all the names in our recent generations are borrowed from the previous two in some combination. So was my grandad Francis? Why the name change to Fred on the marriage cert? I joked with my mum that he must have been on the run...and...she said he was according to nan a petty crim!!!!! I asked if he lied a lot and she confirmed nan had said that too. So has this man been runnign through life changing facts and dates to suit his current purposes?

There is a 1906 West Ham birth for a Francis George Fuller. Could this be him????

Merry Xmas

Rich

None of the possible births for Fred/Frank listed previously give his mothers surname as Fuller or Phillips on freebmd. Does this necessarily mean they are not him?

If they are still possibles then what about this thought:

Did Harriett remarry but it didnt work out and so she THEN called Frank/Fred a Fuller but the new marriages husband was his father?

Still we cant get Fuller/Phillips on freebmd involved with that but we do get:

In 1901 a Mr Foster married a Harriett Fuller. A Frederick Francis Foster was born in W Ham Jun 1905. A very long shot but place/date and those pesky two names are present!

in 1905 there was a marriage in Ipswich between a Harriett Fuller and either an Andrew Pollack Todd or a William Robertson (2 men/2 women on page).
There is a 1906 Fred George Robertson birth in Chelsea but also a Fred George Todd born in 1905 W Ham (the latter giving all the right details bar surname)

What if....Harriett meets a man whilst pregant (perhaps the 57 year old Todd) and it was mutually beneficial for them to get hitched. This happens in Ipswich and they come to W Ham immediately after for the birth. This way Fred is born in wedlock. Or, Todd/Robertson is the father and they run away to get married, come back after to have the child.
The relationship doesnt work out so Harriett reverts to her widowed name (better a widow than a divorcee she thinks?) and so Fred becomes a Fuller...

None of the childrens births give a result on freebmd for mothers surnames being fuller or phillips but then neither do the previous births to check. If the freebmd would give the right mothers surname then this is all hogwash but if there is a chance it may not have it listed or listed correctly then we have a slim possible. Interestingly enough Mr Todd died in Marylebone in 1909, thus showing he moved in the right direction at some point.

Rich

Now the big thing you're forgetting Rich is that mother's surname was only included in the birth entry in the GRO index starting in mid-1911 so no birth before that will show any mother's surname. If you strike it really lucky you find a birth with a surname, the mother's or father's, as second given name.

Divorce was really very rare at the time and it is highly unlikely that Harriet was ever divorced from anyone although it is possible. It is more likely that she simply had a child with a man with whom she partnered after Mr Fuller's death, for some shorter or longer time. As you point out there were also births that resulted from events that were involuntary on the mother's part. We tend to chuckle about our ancestors' wantonness, but young women in service for example were not uncommonly victims of exploitation if not outright victimization and many other women were abused or assaulted. It is more likely though that Harriet chose her partner and for one reason or another the situation did not work out, or of course he died.

Now that we know Harriet was a widow by 1901 - and since she was living with her in-laws this does seem credible - it may well be that Mr Fuller was killed in the Anglo-Boer war. So the story about him being killed in the war would be true, it would just be that he was not actually Fred/Frank's father.

There is a William Fuller listed in the Imperial Yeomanry here:
http://www.britishmedals.us/files/iyf.htm

Fuller, William 23284, Trooper 57th Coy., 15th Bn. I.Y.

Have still been on the trail of that Albert H Fuller.

In British Army Pension Records at Ancestry there is an Albert Fuller born 1897 father Frederick William Fuller living at 8 Ickworth Park Road Walthamstow (no Fullers there in 1911). He must be the Albert Henry born 1897 died 1979.

That leaves the possibility that 'ours' is the one who died in WWI.

Just to identify them separately, this is the _other_ Albert H Fuller in 1901.

Name: Albert H Fuller
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1897
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frederick W
Mother's Name: Jane M
Gender: Male
Where born: Walthamstow, Essex, England
Civil parish: Walthamstow
Frederick W Fuller 36 (lead smelter)
Jane M Fuller 35
Walter W Fuller 15
Alice M Fuller 12
George F Fuller 9
Emma F Fuller 6
Albert H Fuller 4

For some reason we can't find the birth of Fred/Frank _or_ the person who seems to be his older brother, Albert H Fuller or find either of them in 1911.

Hi Bruce

I didnt know that about the GRO and mothers surname :(

This means that even if my wild speculations were true we still couldnt prove them? Grrrr! lol

This may never be solved then I guess, although I am unwilling to give up just yet..I cant leave the rellies not knowing if they are Fullers without giving it more time.....

BTW good Xmas?

Rich

There is the baptism index at Ancestry that I don't pay to access that could answer some questions with mother's surname.

Certainly not, giving up yet! It could take a very long time, I have some myself that have taken literally years, but were (almost) solved in the end.

Relentless scouring of the databases _and_ interrogating of aging relations turned out to be both crucial since the scraps of info held by relations turned out to be the key to understanding what was in the records. On the other hand, relations sometimes 'know' fairytales and the databases sometimes just don't reveal their secrets, lol, but give up trying? never. In fact it can be almost anticlimax to solve something, lol, the fun is in the hunt!

Quiet Xmas as it should be, not enough chocolate, but that is easily remedied. There is always more chocolate!

Hello my fellow Insomniac????

Ok I will join ancestry (as also getting vexed at the fact whatever I try on here to find the aforementioned 1901 Fuller/Fallers doesnt work) but can you tell m what membership I'll need to get access to the baptism index? I had a look at the site and cant see that index mentioned.

My aunts are very unhelpful in that they are unaware even of Freds death. They thought it was early 80s but other suspicions say it is late 80s! I can only think of 2 people who may know something- my great aunt (Freds sister in law) who is in her 90s and apparently someone knows where George/Harrietts descendant Rita lives. The rellies are proving predictbly unhelpful in getting their info too!

Ah! chocloate....someone gave us a box of M&S chocs which I had with a glass of single malt (specially bottled for me! never thought that would happen :) Very nice.

Rich

Is this any help?
1911

ddress:
28 Walpole Road W Stow

FULLER, Frederick William Husband M 46 1865 Smelters Labourer Upminster Essex
FULLER, Jane Martha Wife F 45 1866 Housewife Marylebone
FULLER, Walter William Son Single M 25 1886 Warehouseman Lambeth
FULLER, Alice Maud Daughter Single F 22 1889 Collar Machinist Lambeth
FULLER, George Frederick Son Single M 19 1892 Milkman Lambeth
FULLER, Emma Florence Daughter Single F 16 1895 Cap Machinist Walthamstow
FULLER, Albert Henry Son M 14 1897 Errand Boy Walthamstow
FULLER, Grace Jane Daughter F 9 1902 Walthamstow
FULLER, Hettie Elsie Daughter F 6 1905 Walthamstow
FULLER, Lilian Rose Daughter F 3 1908 Walthamstow
FULLER, Mary Minnie Daughter F 3 1908 Walthamstow
FULLER, William Ernest Son M 2 1909 Walthamstow

What baptism do you want from Ancestry?

Hi Rich, Bruce, Barbara and Viv,

Hope you've all had a very good Christmas!! Looking for Fred/Franks death;

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Frederick George Fuller
Name: Frederick George Fuller
Birth Date: 4 Jul 1905
Death Registration Month/Year: 1971
Registration district: Greenwich
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5b
Page: 1183


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about George Frederick Fuller
Name: George Frederick Fuller
Birth Date: 2 Sep 1906
Death Registration Month/Year: 1970
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5c
Page: 1347

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Frederick George Fuller
Name: Frederick George Fuller
Birth Date: 30 Nov 1904
Death Registration Month/Year: Sep 1987
Age at death (estimated): 82
Registration district: Ealing
Inferred County: London
Volume: 12
Page: 49

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Frederick George Fuller
Name: Frederick George Fuller
Birth Date: 16 Nov 1906
Death Registration Month/Year: Apr 1987
Age at death (estimated): 80
Registration district: Waltham Forest
Inferred County: London
Volume: 15
Page: 733


Do any of these death areas ring a bell Rich?? I've taken the deaths within a year of the year of birth of 1905.


Dee x

I think the other lot are night owls Dee !

Hya Viv,

Think your right..... they'll be about later. Rich you say George Mcpherson died in ww2, this is from CWGC;

Name: McPHERSON, GEORGE ALFRED
Initials: G A
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: North Staffordshire Regiment
Unit Text: 6th Bn.
Age: 32
Date of Death: 06/08/1944
Service No: 6481200
Additional information: Son of George and Harriet McPherson; husband of Rosina May McPherson.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: XIX. F. 12.
Cemetery: BAYEUX WAR CEMETERY



This would give him a birth year of 1912.



Dee x