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You're very welcome,Jim! Sad that neither of the brothers married,but at least you were able to gain some insight into their lives.
Good luck with your research.

Best,
Maureen

Maureen
Before this thread closes. I'd just like to say pointing me in the direction of Victor's Service record has proved most informative. I was then able to find his brother Reginald Alfred Smith b 28Jan 1899, service record as well.
Reg was only 5' 2" and 104 lbs. He was captured by the Germans at St Quentin, so was fortunate to have survived the war. Yet it would appear from research so far that neither brother married, so the effects probably lasted their life time!
Many thanks again
Jim

Dear Ann and Maureen Where were you thirty years ago when I would have loved to have been able to tell my Mum, (she passed away in 1977) what you just told me Thank you SOOO much. No wonder I couldn't find them in the 1901 census .All that info on the children ties in exactly with the dates I had .Mum(daughter of Stella) always said we were related to the Bruce's and so did my second cousin ( Anna Elizabeth's daughter)
but i do vaguely remember Mum saying something about a sailor . She also used to say that Isabella was a court dressmaker,.but that must have been because Tom was a tailor.
Again thank you I am glad you love helping people reconnect with families I am extremely indebted to you. Lynda

1901 Ancestry
Name: Thomas J Rattley (sic)
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Isabella S
Gender: Male
Where born: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Antholin
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:224 Albert Rd
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 22

Name Age
Thomas J Rattley 48 Occ: Postman and Tailor
Isabella S Rattley 34
Stephen Rattley 13 Occ: Telegraph messenger
Ann E Rattley 10
Rosalind Rattley 8
Stella Rattley 5
Christopher Rattley 3
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 507; Folio: 102; Page: 15.
...........................

1911 census transcription details for: 224 Albert Road Peckham S E
RG14PN2581 RG78PN87 RD27 SD6 ED11 SN327

Reg. District: Camberwell Sub District: Peckham South
Parish: Camberwell Enum. District: 11
Address: 224 Albert Road Peckham S E
County: London
RUTTLEY, Tom John Head Married M 58 1853 Tailor And Auxilliary Postman Glos Bristol
RUTTLEY, Isabella Sarah Ann Wife Married
24 years F 45 1866 Stepney London E
RUTTLEY, Rosalind Daughter Single F 18 1893 Machinist Peckham London S E
RUTTLEY, Stella Daughter Single F 15 1896 Domestic Servant Peckham London S E
RUTTLEY, Christopher Son M 13 1898 School Boy Peckham London S E

They have had 6 children. 1 has died.

Maureen

hi

think I found a first marriage for Tom John married Susan Riddle 1881 Tiverton Devon

found census with these two and it said she was from Devon for feel it is the right one

i notice 2 other children for Tom and Isabella Robert 1889 lewisham and Hannah E 1891 but cant find baptisms for these two on London records of baptisms. (this often happens to me dont know why I CANNOT FIND THEM.)

aNN

hi again

children for Tom John and Isabella

Stephen born 30/5/1887 bap 30/10/1887 St Mary Lewisham lived 75 looks like Hither Green lane
Anna Elizabeth bap 27/9/1893 St Chrysostom Peckham lived 108 high street no birth date
also Rosalind baptised 27/9/1893 same place
Tom John is a Postman on bottom two children

Isabella Sarah Ann Giles was born 19/12/1865 baptisted 19/8/1866 St Dunstan and all saints, Tower Hamlets
father George Andrew (seaman) and Ann (Isabella Ann was put down and it is not sure whether trhe Isabella was crossed out. they just put Ann on the main sheet that comes up)

The Ruttleys do not seem to appear anymore and as Tom John was born clifton gloucestershire maybe he only went to London. later on in life. Tried to find a first marriage but does not seem to be one maybe he married in Gloucestershire.

Hope this helps

Ann

hi

Just to start off on your Ruttleys

Tom John Ruttley married Isabella Sarah Ann Giles on the 31/5/1886 parish Christchurch middlesex borough Sothwark
Tom John is a WIDOWER and his occupation is a Tailor. Isabella is a spinster

Father James Ruttley he is a Letter Carrier (Postman in these days?)
Father of spouse is George Giles a Sailor

will look for more

Ann

Nonsense on my part,really,but John/Jack-same thing. His name was:
Births Sep 1891
Smith John Handel J Camberwell 1d 870
I'll bet that the last J is for "Jordan"

(just be thankful you're not part of my Smith gang in canada)

Maureen

Hi Lynda here again Scrub that last question about 3 brothers I just realised what you meant Thanks

Hi from Lynda ,thank you so much for solving the George Smith mystery.However Ann, do you mean that there were 3 brothers in the 1901 census George ,John H and Jack? Also if you're not too sick of me I was wondering if, on my mothers side you could find any more info on the Ruttleys'. I have found the right Tom (T) and Isabella (I) in the 1891 census living at 62 Hill St Camberwell. I found T"s birth 1st Q1853 Born Tom John at Clifton.I found his marriage application 2nd Q 1886 St Savior.His death(very probable) 1st q 1923Camberwell. I cannot find anythi g on I but I think her maiden name was Bruce ,She was 25 in 1891 census born London and I think I found her death1stQ1947 Isabella S.A. Ruttley Wandsworth. Any info like siblings and parents etc would be very helpful .Thank You, Lynda

hi

I have been trying to find a connection for you but not found anything yet/ I did wonder if George had a brother or sister who married a north which I think would make a aunty for Geroge children?

I think I found a father for George

John smith b1816 and Ann born 1822 both east peckham

children Henry abt1838 east peckham
Peter 1847 east peckham
Alfred 1850 east peckham
and of course George

as for something Lynda said at the beginning which puzzled me I have solved she said George and Amelia had a George and a Jack
just found in 1901 census these two with George and John H J smith born 1892 so I should think the second J is Jack which he must have called himself instead of John glad I sorted that out

going to watch casualty now need a rest

Ann

Hi Maureen and Ann plus Lynda
Jim is in France and made contact with Lynda's cousin recently and with Lynda last week.
I think we are trying to work out who the North Aunties were? I'm not sure that it was as simple as that, just that the Aunties married into the North family so carried there name?
This is as I see it – from my tree as it is now - thanks for your help:

Edwin William Jordon married Sarah Ann Roper.
Of their children, Amelia Jordan married George Smith.
That couples son George Smith married Stella Rutley.
Of their children one was Gladys Stella Smith
She married first Raymond Frederick Joseph Ball.
She next married his brother Ronald Egbert Ball (living).
Lynda’s father and mother.

Edwin William Jordan and Sarah Ann Roper’s other daughter Louisa married Alfred Wilkins North.
Their daughter Ruby Estelle North married Frederick John Ball.
Children of that marriage were Raymond Frederick John Ball and Ronald Egbert Ball – see above.

So Gladys first married her second cousin.
She then married another second cousin from the same family.

(There was quite a trend in the North family in London to marry their Second cousin and even First cousins. Not on any religious grounds, as far as I know)

I felt a headache coming on - but it's OK now - thanks to the Legacy Deluxe relationship calculator!

Jim

Hi Lynda

I think the Jordans married the Norths and not the smiths although they must have been friends so I dont think there is a direct link with the Smiths and the Norths.

what makes you think there is a connection with the norths? with your smiths?

Ann

Confused is correct. grin
I thought Jim and Lynda were working in tandem.
What is the major point that Ann and I don't seem to grasp? (or maybe it's just me-sorry,Ann).

Maureen

we know that the Jordans and norths seem connected as alfred wilkins north married a jordan and he was a witness on george smith and amelia's wedding

also that on 1901 sarah jordan mother of amelia and esther was living with esther and her husband James Buss

so the Norths seem connected more with the Jordans as far as I can see and not the smiths although they must have known them to be a witness on the marriage

It seems as if someone else is now asking questions about the smiths and getting you confused. didnt realised I was replying to James and not you just now.

hope that helps

Ann

Dear Jim ,Maureen and Ann,This is starting to get confusing are you suggesting that my George Smith related through the Jordans had ancestors that married into the Norths as well or are you going off on a tangent with other Smiths? Lynda

Hi to james

I dont know if this is connected with your smith or not but found a marriage that was not allowed for richard alfred smith

This couple were prevented from being married on this day as arranged

St Mary the Virgin, sommers town middlesex

Richard Alfred smith age 37 widower (painter) married Jane Conway age 35 Widow (Charwoamn) 1/8/1901
Father Richard Alfred Smith Deceased Painter
father Anthony conway deceased Cabman

then there was a line right across this marriage and they had not signed it.

dont know what age your richard alfred smith is but this one would have been born abt1866

DONT KNOW IF THIS IS RELATED TO YOU SMITHS THOUGH

aNN

Jim,
My instinct tells me that neither of the brothers married.

I agree with you on their deaths.
But where were they in 1911??????
Or does it matter?

Maureen

Hi Maureen
Very many thanks.
Yes - his younger brother was Reginald Alfred Smith, born 28 Jan 1899, Catford, Lewisham, Kent, possibly died Q2 1969, Lewisham.,
No - I'm not seeing marriages for either of them either.
Nor did I see them making the 1911 after their mother died in 1906. Yet they were there somewhere. (or abroad?)
Father Richard Alfred Smith may have died Q3 1925, Lewisham. I was hoping for some continuity.
I'm loath to invest in certificates if there is no continuity.
Thanks again.
Jim
I'll try and find some missing mariages within the 'city walls'!

Hi Jim,
Answering your question to Ann (I'm sure she won't mind)-no the London marriages don't extend to Dartford. I had a look through the Cityark site:
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/query/results/?Mode=Search&PathList=/Z4a_Medway_Ancestors/
for marriages at the Dartford churches with no luck.

However,I see from Victor's army service record that he was single in 1926 when he re-upped for four years with the Territorial Army. His address is given as 163 Sandhurst Rd. Catford-next of kin brother Reginald.

Maureen