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I'm also wondering still whether you looked at the obituary I posted a link to:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/todays-paper/DEATHS/3539966/story.html

The late George Webb of Montreal with a wife born in 1929 (and a son named George Webb) would be the right age to be a son of your George Webb.

There are two sons named with initial G; there are no G Webbs in the Montreal telephone listings, or in Quebec. Many anglophones left Quebec starting around 1970. It's possible Violet wasn't living in Quebec, but the notice was published there because of ties to Montreal. There are only a handful of Webb listings in Montreal at present.

www.whitepages.ca

Unfortunately, a funeral home isn't named in the obituary as a service is being held later.

The death was very recent; it's possible the newspaper would pass a message to the person who placed the notice. One could always ask.

Searching Ancestry 1911 poh=Aylwin gets hits in Wright - this will be the town 70km N of Ottawa - and Montreal Maisonneuve. Aylwin is 1300m NE of and parallel to Parthenais. The 500 block of Rue Aylwin is between Rue Ste Catherine and Rue Charles Wilson. It might even have formerly run down to Rue Notre Dame.

Dear Margaret Manson, this is the correct marriage, what a set of friends I have found here. Yesterday another person who has been helping me for some months, and she is like me and cannot leave anything unfinished, well she found a divorce in 1942 for George Webb and Charlotte Thoburn Webb.

The family said that his first wife died so it could have been a cover up.

Janey does Thoburn sound French to you?

It would have been good to find another marriage but maybe he never took the plunge again. He would have been 53/4 when he divorced Charlotte. He was 66/67 on visiting England.

Dear Janey The army web site that I have been on also suggested that I buy his service records. The no 3 field artillery on the first attestation records are a regiment that was started in St. John, N.B. So we know from his marriage that he was not in the service at least from 1912 until 1914. Cannot thank you enough for your help. I am still thinking about buying these and also still finding the census, cannot get to my library this week, I am only on genes and our library lets you go on ancestry and have managed to search for canadian census there and also christenings in London. I am hoping that Emily although she never seemed to register her first 2 children she had them christened. Found some before , one saying she was a widow but I did not then have a definate date of birth then.

Dear mgnv what a lot of trouble you are going to for me. I shall have to read and reread what you have found. We now know that he was living in Montreal in 1912 the year he married and was working as a fireman.

On his attestation 2 years later he is and engineer and 2 years after that he says he was chauffer, I think, handwriting not too good. He was definately versatile shall we say.

Thoburn doesn't sound remotely French. ;) I expect it was Juliette who was French-Canadian. The second record does say "Chauffer".

There is only one Thoburn in the Montreal white pages at present, three in total in Quebec, 24 in Ontario, just for an idea of how common the surname is: not very.

For the Canadian censuses, do try automatedgenealogy.com as I've suggested. The problem is its crappy search function, but as mgnv and I have said, you can use the ancestry.ca searches just as he and I do, without paying, to get a rough idea, using its fuzzy search function.

AG shows 4 Thoburns in Montreal, Ancestry shows none.

How about this, though?

Births Sep 1893
Thoburn Charlotte Sunderland 10a 640

And using FMP passenger search also without paying:

THOBURN Charlotte Unknown F 1910 Liverpool Canada Quebec
THOBURN Charlotte Unknown F 1910 Liverpool Canada Quebec

Could be a duplicate listing. Or maybe more likely, one of these:

Marriages Jun 1883
BOWLER George Armatage Sunderland 10a 780
? KIRBY Charlotte Sunderland 10a 780
? THOBURN John William Sunderland 10a 780
White Sarah Sunderland 10a 780

Marriages Dec 1890
McKenney Mary Ann Sunderland 10a 880
McKenney Ralph Sunderland 10a 880
? Thoburn Edward Cooper Sunderland 10a 880
? Young Charlotte Sunderland 10a 880

Travelling with a Charlotte Thoburn (in addition to the possible two Charlotte Thoburns travelling with each other):

THOBURN Ethel Unknown F 1910 Liverpool Canada Quebec
THOBURN Frances Unknown F 1910 Liverpool Canada Quebec
THOBURN Hubert Unknown M 1910 Liverpool Canada Quebec
THOBURN Nelly Unknown F 1910 Liverpool Canada Quebec
THOBURN Norah Unknown F 1910 Liverpool Canada Quebec

Ah -- did husband/father Edward die and the family travelled to Canada to join other family?

Deaths Jun 1910
Thoburn Edward Cooper 47 Sunderland 10a 327

Ah, no, this is how it works -- 1901:

Name: Charlotte Thoburn
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1894
Relation: Stepdaughter
Mother's name: Charlotte Almony
Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England

Civil Parish: Sunderland
County/Island: Durham

William Almony 42
Charlotte Almony 38
David Thoburn 15
Eleanor Almony 2 MO
Albert E Thoburn 13
John W Thoburn 11
Herbert Thoburn 9
Charlotte Thoburn 7
Ethel Thoburn 5
Annie Thoburn 4

I suspect that's them -- Eleanor being Nelly, on the passenger list, Herbert being mistranscribed as Hubert, etc. I can't find any Almony-s on the passenger list, but I think I'd put that down to mistranscription by FMP maybe -- or else Charlotte Sr decided to travel under her former name.

Marriages Dec 1900
Almony William Sunderland 10a 1157
Thoburn Charlotte Sunderland 10a 1157

Deaths Jun 1901
Almony William 43 Sunderland 10a 347


I suspect Charlotte is the wife you really want to find, as any children George may have had would likely have been with her. That is -- you are likely looking for descendants of George Webb and Charlotte Thoburn. Unless they were estranged for some considerable time before the divorce.

Three GR members have Charlotte Thoburn born 1893/94 in Sunderland in their trees here at GR.

The same three people plus one other have Eleanor Almony born 1901 in Sunderland in their trees.

Two people have surname Webb born in Montreal 1910-1930 in their trees:
Gerald Webb 1930
Sylvia Webb 1929

I'd say it would be worth trying to contact all of those people.


Thoburns left behind in England, in 1911:

THOBURN MR DAVID 1886 25 Sunderland Durham
THOBURN MRS ADA 1889 22 Sunderland Durham

The same people have David in their tree here at GR.

I can't find any of the Thoburns in 1911, but that census does have these, found at AG:

Thoburn Catherine 3 Quebec Quebec Centre Montcalm ward
Thoburn Jeannette 26 Quebec Quebec Centre Montcalm ward
Thoburn William 4 Quebec Quebec Centre Montcalm ward
Thoburn William A. 33 Quebec Quebec Centre Montcalm ward

However, there's no son William in the 1891 household in Sunderland:

Jno Wm Thoborn 31 - born Sunderland
Charlotte Thoborn 28
Anthony J Thoborn 7
David Thoborn 4
Albert E Thoborn 3
Jno Wm Thoborn 1
Anthony Thoborn 62
Sarah H Thoborn 14

Unrelated, it seems; 1881:

Name: William A. Thoburn
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Thoburn - born Ireland c1844
Mother's name: Catherine Thoburn
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England


The Virtual War Museum has:

In memory of
Corporal HERBERT CLARENCE THOBURN
who died on February 20, 1944
Service Number: D/76125
Force: Army
Unit: Royal Montreal Regiment, R.C.A.C.
Division: 32nd Reconnaissance Regt.

Looks like a good chance he's a son of a Thoburn sibling, being Herbert. Unfortunately, no family details are given, and the CWGC site also has no details. Last Post has no Thoburn veteran deaths.

For info, the divorce -- at the time, divorces were by Act of Parliament, on petition:

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/procedure-book-livre/Document.aspx?
sbdid=B629FFD7-DE44-435A-9538-CAE07CDD3095&sbpidx=1&Language=E&Mode=1

http://www.archive.org/stream/jcc8219424800uoft/jcc8219424800uoft_djvu.txt

The version there is in French, so I'll translate:

SEANCE DU MARDI, 27 JANVIER 1942

Session held on Tuesday, January 27, 2942

Le Greffier de la Chambre dépose sur le Bureau le deuxième rapport du greffier des pétitions, exposant qu'il a examiné les pétitions suivantes présentées le 26 courant, et qu'il a constaté que toutes les prescriptions de l'article 68 du Règlement ont été observées dans chaque cas, savoir: —

The Clerk of the House tables the second report of the Clerk of Petitions, stating that he has examined the following petitions presented on the 26th of this month, and that he has determined that all the requirements of Standing Order 68 have been met in each case, to wit:

De George Webb, de Montréal, P.Q., qui demande l'adoption d'une loi pour annuler son mariage et obtenir son divorce de Charlotte Thoburn Webb, de Montréal, P.Q. — M. Boucher.

By George Webb, of Montreal, Quebec, who prays that an Act be passed to annul his marriage and grant him a divorce from Charlotte Thoburn Webb, of Montreal, Quebec — Mr. Boucher [the MP who submitted the petition]


http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy/022-906.008-e.html
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/divorce/index-e.html

Name of Petitioner - Name of Spouse - Reference - Year - Citation
Webb, George - Thoburn, Charlotte - Statutes of Canada - 1942 - 105

Searching the local index at:
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1399

Surname Forename(s) Year of Marriage
MCKENNY Ralph 1890 Select
YOUNG Charlotte 1890 Select

Surname Forename(s) Year of Marriage
MCKENNY Mary A 1890 Select
THOBRUN Edward C 1890 Select

Surname Forename(s) Year of Marriage
ALMONY William 1900 Select
THOBURN Charlotte 1900 Select


Janey - thanks for posting that divorce record - I've not seen one before.
(My lot seemed to go in for "common law" divorces - i.e., one of them just left or else got booted out.)
I knew divorces were a federal matter, although the British North America Act (sect 91/92) seems a bit schizo abt marrs, saying solemnization of marriage in the province is exclusively provincial, yet the subject class of marriage and divorce is (notwithstanding anything in this act) is in the exclusive legislative authority if the Parliament of Canada - go figure (or maybe ask the supreme court to go figure).

It's been done, mgnv. ;)

Marriage -- specifically, who may and may not marry, as in degrees of consanquinuity -- is under federal jurisdiction, as is divorce -- grounds, etc.

Solemnization of marriage -- issuing licences, authorizing celebrants -- is under provincial jurisdiction.

It was an issue re same-sex marriage, of course. Provinces refused to issue licences, applicants alleged that provinces did not have the authority to determine who may marry, and if the feds tried to exclude same-sex partners it would violate the Charter, with which all the provincial appellate courts who heard the cases agreed.

So basically, the provinces just oversee the formalities of marriage.


Our Charlotte Sr's first marriage was:

Marriages Jun 1883
KIRBY Charlotte Sunderland 10a 780
THOBURN John William Sunderland 10a 780

-- Charlotte Thoburn Webb's parents.

Sunderland local:
Surname Forename(s) Year of Marriage
KIRBY Charlotte 1883 Select
THOBURN John W 1883 Select

Maybe:
Births Dec 1862 (>99%)
KIRBY Charlotte Sunderland 10a 438


1871 England Census
Civil Parish: Sunderland
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
Town: Sunderland
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street address: 30 Burleigh St
Registration district: Sunderland
Sub-registration district: East Sunderland
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 209

Charlotte Kerby 40 Sunderland, Durham, England Wife M Mariner's Wife
Hannah Kerby 12 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter
Charlotte Kerby 8 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter Scholar
William Kerby 5 Sunderland, Durham, England Son Scholar
Sophia Kerby 3 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter
Richard Kerby 3Mo Sunderland, Durham, England Son

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 5014; Folio: 59; Page: 35; GSU roll: 847383.

[Image says Kirby Correct'n subm'd]

EDIT 1861

1861 England Census
Civil Parish: Sunderland
Ecclesiastical parish: Sunderland
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street address: 30 Burleigh St
Registration district: Sunderland
Sub-registration district: East Sunderland
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 169

John Kirby 37 Farnham, Essex, England Head M Mariner ( Mer Sea)
Charlotte Kirby 30 Sunderland, Durham, England Wife M
John Kirby 4 Sunderland, Durham, England Son
Hannah Kirby 2 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter
Matthew Kirby 7MO Sunderland, Durham, England Son

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3778; Folio: 17; Page: 28; GSU roll: 543185.

[Not sure re John's 1861 pob - looks like Fairham to me, but I can't find either on a map]

Surname Forename(s) Year of Marriage
CRAGGS Charlotte P 1853 Select
KIRBY John 1853 Select

Marriages Mar 1853 (>99%)
BILES William Sunderland 10a 345
Craggs Charlotte Proud Sunderland 10a 345
GIBSON Mary Sunderland 10a 345
Hobson Henry Sunderland 10a 345
KIRBY John Sunderland 10a 345

Their are 2 submitted records in the IGI for Charlotte Proud Craggs d/o John Middleton Craggs + Hannah Proud, b 28/6/1830, h/o John Kirby, m 1/3/1853.
[I'm inclined to think they're accurate]


1851 England Census
Civil Parish: Sunderland
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street address: 23 Burleigh St
Registration district: Sunderland
Sub-registration district: East Sunderland
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 158

Matthew Neal 34 Suffolk, England Head M Cordwainer
Hannah Neal 44 Sunderland, Durham, England Wife M
Sophia Neal 2 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter
Charlotte Craggs 20 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter-in-Law U Servant
Hannah Craggs 13 Sunderland, Durham, England Daughter-in-Law Scholar

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2397; Folio: 175; Page: 33; GSU roll: 87075.

[Not there in 1841 - see ho107/321/4/20/34-35]


Marriages Jun 1847 (>99%)
BATTAS Lunetta Sunderland 24 272
Battas Sunetta Sunderland 24 272
Corner John Sunderland 24 272
Craggs Hannah Sunderland 24 272
Hall Thomas Sunderland 24 272
Hinde Eleanor Sunderland 24 272
NEAL Matthew Sunderland 24 272
VICKERS Mary Sunderland 24 272
Wilson William Sunderland 24 272


Surname Forename(s) Year of Marriage
CRAGGS Hannah 1847 Select
NEAL Matthew 1847 Select

https://beta.familysearch.org/


DUR BTs Sunderland 1830-1837 (image 24 of 663)
Birth June 28 1830
[Entry]# 41 [bp] 1831 Jan'y 23; Charlotte Power Son [sic] of; John Middleton Craggs & Hannah Power;
[abode] Newquay; Butcher; J Heayten[?] Curate

There are 4 extracts in the IGI that are sibs, possibly Mary is too.
I've not looked for any other hits in the DUR BTs (which have a gap 1820-1830 excl, whether a real gap or just in the films, I don't know)


3. Mary Craggs - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 23 MAR 1834 Bishopwearmouth, Durham, England

6. Charlotte Proud CRAGGS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 28 JUN 1830 Sunderland, Durham, England

7. SARAH CRAGGS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 07 MAR 1836 Sunderland, Durham, England

8. JOHN PROUD CRAGGS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 04 MAY 1832 Sunderland, Durham, England

9. HANNAH CRAGGS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 09 MAR 1838 Sunderland, Durham, England

mgnv .......... we're looking for George Webb and any offspring in Canada. ;)

Janey - right, I did sort of get side-tracked there.

Hi Janey can I pass this thought to you, George on his marriage was a fireman, on his 1st attestation he was an engineer on his 2nd attestation he was a chauffer, apart from the fact that he could be multi tasking, a thing we woman are good at, my friend has suggested that possibly he could have worked on the railway as Fireman/Engineer/Chauffer, is this last word the name of a stoker in french please?

I'd be pretty sure Chauffer on his papers is his spelling of Chauffeur.

But my goodness, you're right. "Chauffeur" has a second meaning in French. The primary meaning is "driver", but it's also:

gen: stoker (of boiler)
Rail: fireman

Very clever, you!

And of course the fireman and engineer likely both refer to railway work; I should have thought of that, since my gr-grf who immigrated to Canada was a railway fireman. ;)

So that links him all up, doesn't it?


Now how bout those Thoburn connections I found here at GR?

You'll probably have the luck I had when contacting cousins in lines of my families who remained in England when my gr-grparents on one side and gr-parents on the other immigrated to Canada: "Who?" ;) Once you emigrate, yer gone; out of sight, out of mind!

I cannot claim credit for this I have met on line a very very distant relative of a relative of the family I am looking for and she is a genius. Sometimes in life you are lucky so my persistance over 2 years finally paid off with her.

Right Thoburn - I am going to read what you have found and then of course contact them, that is how I met my helper. I did look for a marriage in this country and drew a blank. I know the name of Thorburn in this country but not Thoburn but as most people could not read and write it depended on who the cleric was.
Tried to look up Montreal railways and an email address and all I can see is an electric railway, you do not need a stoker or fireman for that.so from your extensive knowlege was there a steam train also and do you know if there is anyone who would know if they kept names of employees. Had a bit of luck in my search for my husband's grandfathers railway history in England.

Going to get in touch with Thoburns and then reread all you and everyone else is finding.


regards Sandra

He would have worked on either CNR (Canadian National Railway) or CPR (Canadian Pacific Railway). If you google them you'll find histories, I'm sure. It's all amalgamated now, but was separate at the time. Both went cross-country and down into southern Ontario, for instance. Montreal has always been a major rail hub.

If he was here in 1911, he may even have been off tooting around the country on a train on census night.

I doubt there would be personnel records at this date, however.

Hello everyone, had 2 replies from Genes re Charlotte, one said it was only a distant relative and the other knew of her mother's twice marriage but not that she had gone to Canada, I think this person lives in England, that was this morning. This afternoon she had been in touch with a Canadian cousin and had sight of the marriage cert, I asked if there were any photos in the family but not building my hopes up it was another branch of the family.

Had a reply from Railways in Canada and have to notify them his details and see if anything turns up, thought it would be weeks before I heard not next day.

Also had a reply from army contact, George was in the reserves part time before the war as a volunteeer, there would be no paperwork. She gave me the dates that we already know of his joining up, he was discharged April 1916 as medically unfit. He joined again Nov. 1916 and was discharged Jan. 1917

He died 21st Feb. 1963 in Ville St. Martin Quebec. - I presume they know this because he may have had a pension.

I am going to let the family apply for his papers if they want them, which I hope they do, there are 25 - 75 pages, according to this lady depending on what service they had. The papers tell of when he was in England and where but if he was abroad it would say France not the district.

It was a lovely letter. Any worries I had about this being the correct soldier has been dispelled, the death date is when the family thought he died and I am quite happy today.

Head hurting with all the info today, few more emails to do so goodnight all






Sandra