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Sarah
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4 Jan 2013 16:13 |
Just found a death for that Oliver Offer:
British Columbia, Death Registrations, 1872-1986 name Oliver Offer event Death event date 21 Oct 1918 event place Anyox, British Columbia, Canada gender Male age 31 marital status Single birthplace, England british columbia archives film number B13113 digital folder number 004437642 registration number 68757
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Sarah
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4 Jan 2013 16:08 |
Thanks John - that sounds promising - might explain why I can't find him on the 1911 census then. I will have a look in to that.
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John
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4 Jan 2013 13:05 |
An Oliver OFFER, a farm labourer, features on FMP, on the emigration pages.
Date of departure: *27 June 1907* (My emphasis) Port of departure: Liverpool Passenger destination port: Montreal, Canada Passenger destination: Montreal, Canada Date of Birth: 1887 (calculated from age) Age: 20 Marital status: Single Sex: Male Occupation: Farm Lab Ship: Ottawa
Might this be him?
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Sarah
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3 Jan 2013 19:41 |
Sorry - a quick amendment - Just checked the baptism records for Oliver Houlton again and the parents were Henry and Elizabeth not Henry and Sarah.
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Sarah
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3 Jan 2013 19:33 |
What I know to be facts are Oliver Houlton/Offer appears on 1891 and 1901 census returns as shown above with Elizabeth Offer and George Cox. On both census, it gives a birth year of circa 1888 and of Etchilhampton. There is a corresponding baptism in Etchilhampton for 8 Sep 1889 for Oliver John Henry Houlton born to Sarah and Henry Houlton of Enford, Wokingham, Berkshire. Father listed as Carpenter & Joiner - no birth date mentioned or any other information.
As for Elizabeth and George, they never married but cohabited for quite a number of years. They had the following children, all registered as Offer: - Sarah Elizabeth Offer b1864 Etchilhampton married John James Harris 26 Jul 1884 Etchilhampton marriage registered under surname of Cox - father listed as George Cox. Spinster when married - Annie Offer b1866 Etchilhampton married James J T Bolland 30 Sep 1891 father listed as George Cox. Spinster when married - Walter James Offer b1869 Etchilhampton - John Offer b1869 Etchilhampton d1902 - Alice Martha Offer b1874 Etchilhampton - haven't found after 1891 - may have married but no info
George Cox wasn't married before he was "with" Elizabeth from what I can see. George was born in Etchilhampton to John Cox and Martha Unknown. Elizabeth Offer was born in Etchilhampton to Richard Offer and Sarah Hall.
So far I have not come acrosss the surname Houlton within the family.
The information I have given you in the original post and this one is all accurate based on the records at the record office in Wiltshire. I have baptism records from the record office for all of George and Elizabeth's children - (although they only state Elizabeth on them) - As far as I'm aware I have all their children listed as above - unless they had one which wasn't baptised! The baptism record for Oliver is also from the record office plus the marriage information for George and Elizabeth's children that I've provided.
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rootgatherer
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3 Jan 2013 15:39 |
Yes, my apologies MarieCeleste.
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MarieCeleste
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3 Jan 2013 15:23 |
.. but Sarah was married to John James Harris in 1884 ......
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rootgatherer
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3 Jan 2013 15:15 |
Thanks Tracey, you could be right there. I had just checked for John H Offer births on FreeBMD. Hadn't looked on the census.
I think I still quite like the look of that Oliver John R Offer birth in Islington. (Sarah was living in London at the time of the 1881 census) Will have a look at the original image as the "R" might be a mistranscribed "H"?
EDIT
Senior Moment (Again) !!!!
MarieCeleste found the marriage for Sarah (who was in London in 1881) to Harris. Here they are in 1891 (with a child the same age as Oliver)
Name: Sarah Harris Age: 26 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865 Relation: Wife Spouse's Name: John J Harris Gender: Female Where born: Etchilhampton, Wiltshire, England Civil parish: St James Ecclesiastical parish: Southbroom Town: Devizes County/Island: Wiltshire Country: England Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status: View image Registration district: Devizes Sub-registration district: Devizes ED, institution, or vessel: 9 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 1599 Folio: 81 Page Number: 16 Household Members: Name Age John J Harris 27 Sarah Harris 26 Ida N Harris 3 Ethel M Harris 2 Ada Frances Cox 14 Harry Weston 21
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WayneTracey
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3 Jan 2013 13:50 |
Root,
I think this is the man you have the death for...?
Name: John Offer Age in 1911: 24 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887 Relation to Head: Son Gender: Male Birth Place: Wedhampton, Wiltshire, England Civil parish: Urchfont County/Island: Wiltshire Country: England Street Address: Wedhampton, Devizes, Wilts Marital Status: Single Occupation: Cowman On Farm Registration district: Devizes Registration District Number: 246 Sub-registration district: Lavington ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Household schedule number: 93 Piece: 11946
James Offer 60 Hannah Offer 55 John Offer 24 Harry Offer 21 May Offer 14
Tracey
:-D
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WayneTracey
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3 Jan 2013 13:39 |
To be honest, there's no saying he was actually born with either of the names he's had attached to him on the census!!!
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rootgatherer
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3 Jan 2013 13:29 |
I wonder if he dropped the Oliver from his name? I don't see a birth to match this death.
???
Deaths Mar 1959 OFFER John H 71 Devizes 7c 521
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WayneTracey
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3 Jan 2013 13:23 |
it's still possible he is the result of a previous marriage for a child of Elizabeth & George?
He could well have been 'placed' at his Grandparents when his mother remarried?
He could have just inherited the surname of Offer in a further census, depending on who gave the details at the time?
We really do need to strip down the Grandparents tree's and establish some firm details.
Sarah, a lot of the details you have given us do not appear to be accurate? Can you please tell us where you have got most of your data from?
Tracey
:-D
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MarieCeleste
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3 Jan 2013 13:05 |
Sarah - does the baptism give an actual birth date for Oliver? Is there any other relevant info on the baptism?
Also, I'm struggling to find that 1886 marriage for Sarah Elizabeth Offer and John James Harris.
EDIT: Is this it?
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page Marriages Sep 1884 BEAKE Harriet Devizes 5a 155 COX Sarah Devizes 5a 155 << Harris John James Devizes 5a 155 << Maskell John Devizes 5a 155
That knocks on the head any theory about her being Oliver's mum!
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Dea
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3 Jan 2013 12:50 |
He is still single right through to 1911 MC, but, that said, it soesn't look as if he and Sarah were ever together, expecially if she married a couple of years after the son was born?
Perhaps it was just a 'fling' and they both went their seperate ways, leaving the child with grandparents?
Dea x
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MarieCeleste
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3 Jan 2013 12:37 |
The Henry in Dea's 1881 is still at home and single in 1891:
HOULTON, Harriett Head Widow F 59 1832 Cirencester, Gloucestershire HOULTON, Harry Son Single M 29 1862 Joiner Journeyman Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, David Son Single M 27 1864 Operative In Paper Mill Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, Edwin Son Single M 23 1868 Bricklayer Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, Edith Daughter Single F 19 1872 Imbecile From Childhood Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, Charles Son M 13 1878 Page Wokingham, Berkshire
Piece: 999 Folio: 65 Page: 4 Registration District: Wokingham Civil Parish: Wokingham Municipal Borough: Wokingham
Address: Cottage, Wokingham County: Berkshire
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rootgatherer
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3 Jan 2013 12:35 |
1881
Name: Sarah Offer Age: 16 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865 Relation: Servant Gender: Female Where born: Etchilhampton, Wiltshire, England Civil parish: St John County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 8 Gloucester Sq Education:
Employment status: View image Occupation: Kitchen Maid Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: St John Paddington ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 18 Folio: 16 Page Number: 28 Household Members: Name Age Annie S. Gostling 70 Elizabeth Gostling 43 Fanny Gostling 40 Georgina Gostling 38 Florence Gostling 36 Theodosia Gostling 35 William Gostling 32 Caroline Leather 26 Mary Gubb 39 Anne E. Bates 26 Elizabeth A. Lovell 20 Sarah Offer 16 William Connell 26
Not seeing his birth registered as Houlton.
???
Births Jun 1887 Offer Oliver John R Islington 1b 22
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MarieCeleste
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3 Jan 2013 12:31 |
I'd thought this is the correct 1881 for the Henry and Sarah in the opening post but the occupation is wrong :
HOULTON, Henry Head Married M 38 1843 Ag Lab Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, Sarah Wife Married F 36 1845 Arborfield, Berkshire HOULTON, Emily Daughter Single F 14 1867 Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, Eugene Son Single M 10 1871 Scholar Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, George Son Single M 3 1878 Wokingham, Berkshire HOULTON, Elizabeth M Daughter Single F 3 1878 Wokingham, Berkshire
Piece: 1310 Folio: 31 Page: 18 Registration District: Wokingham Civil Parish: Wokingham
Address: Peach St, Wokingham County: Berkshire
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Sarah
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3 Jan 2013 12:29 |
MarieCeleste - That tree on Ancestry is mine and it is information that I had a while back but I do not think it is correct - it is the only Henry Houlton and Sarah marriage I could find - it seems unlikely though - they'd have been married 30 years before having Oliver. I've searched for a Houlton/Cox marriage too in case it was a daughter of George Cox but nothing has come up. I think the Cnesus Dea found for Henry Houlton looks a possibility.
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WayneTracey
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3 Jan 2013 12:29 |
Sarah,
Have you stripped down all of Elizabeth & George's tree?
....are you missing any children for them?
Where do the Houlton's fit into either tree?
Tracey
:-D
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rootgatherer
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3 Jan 2013 12:28 |
1871
Name: Elizabeth Offer Age: 31 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840 Relation: Head Gender: Female Where born: Etchilhampton, Wiltshire, England Civil parish: Etchilhampton Town: Etchilhampton County/Island: Wiltshire Country: England Registration district: Devizes Sub-registration district: Bishops Cannings ED, institution, or vessel: 6 Household schedule number: 22 Piece: 1908 Folio: 52 Page Number: 4 Household Members: Name Age Elizabeth Offer 31 Unmarried, Laundress Sarah Offer 6 Daughter Annie Offer 5 Daughter Walter Offer 1 Son Jane Offer 16 Sister, Unmarried
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