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Thanks Christina,

I guess I really need to order some certificates. In the meantime I have been having fun looking at census records.

All of the children (Mills/Andersons) seem to have stayed relatively close.

1886 Charles ANDERSON is living in Smarts Lane, Loughton

1891 Charles Anderson is living in York Hill, Loughton
Eliza Mills is living at Smarts Lane, Loughton, Epping

1901 Charles Anderson is living at 2 Albert Road North, Buckhurst Hil
Rosetta Mills is living at Smarts Lane, Village, Loughton, Epping,

1911 Selina Mills is living at 8 Hargreaves Cotts Alfred Road Buckhurst Hill
Rosetta Mills is living at 6 Hargreaves Cotts Alfred Road Buckhurst Hill
Eliza Mills is living at 76 Smarts Lane Loughton Essex, Loughton
Charles ANDERSON is living at 10 Kings Place, Buckhurst Hill

The question is, why did Charles George change from Mills to Anderson but the girls did not?

(also perhaps was a different Moses!)

03 September 1869 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford

The Gipsies' Quarrel.— Moses Smith, belonging to the tribe gipsies which infest High Beech and the neighborhood


(just to add regarding above Moses Newspaper article posted earlier, also same year a month later was above, Sophia Shaw woman who lived with him, brought a charge against him for assault, then appeared a day or so later, and said there was never a better "husband", and that he treated her very kindly!.)


Marriages Jun 1870 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------
Shaw Sophia West Ham 4a 65
Smith Moses W Ham 4a 65

1871
Street Cherry Island In A Tent
Parish West Ham

Chris :)

(these Smith families come up on the Romany sites, on a google search, Huntingdon was a popular place, and the Boswells)

I carried on with the Loughton baptisms a year further than I did yesterday, and found these. All baptised on the same day. But I still can't find Charles in Writtle. Maybe they moved somewhere else between Writtle and Loughton.

Loughton baptisms - 20th December 1878

Parents Charles and Sarah - a (looks like) white smith

Rosetta
John William
Eliza
Selina

Possible 1901 census for Selina Mills. Inmate at the Penitentiary, Church Street, Oxford

Name: Selina Mills
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
Gender: Female
Age: 18
Birthplace: Loughton
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Oxford
Sub-District: Oxford
Ecclesiastical Parish: St Cross
Parish: Oxford
County: Oxfordshire

I wonder why she went there!

This is from the Petty Sessions in Chelmsford - 20th March 1885

What's interesting about it is the use of the name Anderson. (Same address as the 1881 census)

"Squirrel Hunting in the Forest"

Charles Anderson, 20, and Edward Smith, 22, labourers residing in Standard Yard, Loughton and John Smith, alias Pierce, 22, labourer of Smart's Lane, Loughton .......

That's interesting.

Did you note that one of the other defendants was a "John Smith, alias Pierce, of Smarts Lane".

Could the "Smith" be related to the Smiths dicussed earlier in the thread? Also the address. It seems that everyone lives in Smarts Lane at some point :-)

1881
James Pearce Head Married Male 45 1836 Forest Keeper (Wood Man) Theydon Bois, Essex
Sarah Pearce Wife Married Female 32 1849 - Thurley, Hertfordshire
John Pearce Son Single Male 5 1876 Scholar Theydon Bois, Essex
Walter Pearce Son Single Male 3 1878 - Loughton, Essex
House name Foresters Arms
Street Baldwin Hill
Parish Loughton
Registration district Epping
Series RG11
Piece number 1735
Folio 12
Page 18

(the article relates to them being summoned for infringing Forest bye law, James Pearce (posted above) caught them, and informed magistrates that squirrel hunting had been carried on for some months past at High Beech, and the practice had become a great nuisance, especially to the worshippers of Holy Innocents Church.
They were fined 10s each, including costs, with a fortnight to pay)

Chris :)

(possibly below)

1881
First name(s) John
Last name Smith
Relationship Servant
Marital condition Single
Gender Male
Age 17
Birth year 1864
Occupation Gardener
Birth town High Beech
Birth county Essex
House name Oak Lodge
Parish Chingford
County Essex
Country England
Registration district Epping
Series RG11

excellent with those 1878 baptisms Christina

in my own ... interesting ... family I have a batch baptism of only the youngest batch of kids as well ... it has always seemed to me like an indication that they had a different father from the older kids ...


Smith and Mills both seem to turn up in these areas in connection with travellers, and the names with each other, that's for sure.

Jayne you do have a situation where Person 1 disappears at a certain point and Person 2 emerges shortly after looking for all the world like Person 1, which, if all other possibilities have been exhausted to the extent possible, may be as close as it is possible to get to certainty that they are one and the same.

Any similarities that can be found between Persons 1 and 2 can help to firm it up and to look for other evidence. Person 2's children's names for instance ... do they seem connected with Person 1's family, that sort of thing.

to summarize that bit:

Your Person 2, your own Charles Anderson, emerged full-blown in 1886

Your Person 1, Charles Anderson, was last (only?) seen in 1881.

They are both associated with Loughton and both have a birthplace *rittle.

What of your Charles' children? The eldest are Charles, Ellen, John and Sarah, in that order. I don't suppose Harriet Foster's parents might have been Ellen and John?

I can't find her in 1871 or 1881 ... would this be her birth?

Births Jun 1866
FOSTER Harriet H W. Ham 4a 50

in 1911 she is 47 but in 1901 she is 34.

No, in 1871 she (Harriet E Foster?) is with parents James and Elizabeth in Chigwell. I was hoping the first 4 kids were named for their four grandparents. :-)


of course, YDNA could lead to answers - if there is a male-line descendant of your Charles Anderson to test, and if someone with the same recent ancestors has also tested ...

I had the extreme and rare good fortune to have this happen; my mystery ancestor's male-line descendant has matched with someone with all the right characteristics (originating w/in 10 miles of the same place, connection with the same kind of work) ... just a completely unexpected and unexplained surname, and no clue yet to where are common ancestor is except that it is probably within the time of records (post-1500).

It could be worth a shot, and it's fun in any case !

Hi JoonieCloonie,

Thank you for that last post.

Sadly YDNA can't help. Although Charles Anderson and Harriett Foster had 10 children I have been unable to contact any descendants. As my great grandfather had 4 girls it would not be possible to test anyone.

All I can do is keep researching and ordering certificates to back everything up.

Just for the record and following on from Joonies last comment, the eldest 4 children of Charles and Harriett are:

Charles James Anderson
Ellen Harriet Anderson
John William Anderson
Sarah Selina Anderson

I am looking at census records for the Mills children and have noticed something rather strange with Eliza.

Christina found the record showing that she married William Hockley in 1891.

The family are in the 1891 census (I can't find an Ancestry record so here is FMP)

Henry Hockley Head Married Male 24 1867 General Labourer
Eliza Hockley Wife Married Female 20 1871 -
Ellen M Hockley Daughter - Female 0 1891

And in 1901:

William Hockley 24 (I Checked, Image reads 34)
Eliza Hockley 29
Annie Rose Hockley 8
Ellen M Hockley 7
William H Hockley 4
Lillith K Hockley 1
John W Mills 34


Can anyone tell me how Ellen M Hockley is listed in the 1891 census as new born, but 7 years old in the 1901 census?

Likely Ellen birth:

Births Jun 1894 (>99%)
Hockley Ellen Mary Epping 4a 384

It's likely that the first baby Ellen died.

I can't see any death record though. Maybe, as she was only tiny, they buried her themselves. That's only a maybe.

just one note about your Charles's children -- Sarah Selina looks a lot like Charles 1's family: mother and sister.

first daughter got her mother's name Harriet, second daughter got her names from her father's family?


for info, the Hockley family is 'Hackley' at Ancestry in 1891 (I searched for Ellen born 1891 with parents Henry and Eliza) in High Roding reg dist Epping

Henry Hackley 24
Eliza Hackley 20
Ellen M Hackley 1 Week

Sorry, I have been away for a couple of days.

Thanking you all again for your input into this thread. Your help has been much appreciated.

I am ordering certificates now and will post details when I get them :-)

Jayne, Have you thought of getting in touch with Elizabeth with the Romany. Gypsy database - on Genealogy Chat.

She may be able to tie your Mills family in with the Smith family

I have posted on her thread and pm'd her the link to this thread. It would be great if she could find the Mills/Anderson/Smith link ??