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This looks like Susannah Tuthill in the 1851 census in Wangford Union Workhouse:-

1851 census transcription details for: Workhouse Of The Wangford Union,

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 1804
Folio: 276
Page: 6
Reg. District: Wangford
Sub District: Beccles
Parish: Shipmeadow
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: Shipmeadow
County: Suffolk

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

TUTHILL, Susannah F 1 1850
Redisham, Suffolk

Also there is William Tuthill, a pauper aged 30, his wife Mary Ann aged 30, William aged one as well as Susannah.

Kath. x

Thank you again Astra. Once again you have come up trumps. Yes it could definitely be Tuthill.

Anne

.This looks as though it could be the marriage. Could it be Tuthill on the certificate?

Marriages Dec 1870 (>99%)
Smith Johnnathan Blything 4a 1513
TUTHILL Susannah Blything 4a 1513


Susannah may have died in 1872

Deaths Sep 1872 (>99%)
Smith Susannah 22 Blything 4a 419

This is her with Jonathan in 1871

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 1771
Folio: 60
Page: 13
Reg. District: Blything
Sub District: Wenhaston
Parish: Westhall
Enum. District: 5
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: The Race Horse Inn, Westhall
County: Suffolk
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
SMITH, Jonathan Head M 21 1850 Suffolk
SMITH, Susannah Wife F 21 1850 Suffolk
TUTHILL, James Lodger M 13 1858 Suffolk

If you ordered the certificate from the GRO then I would phone them and ask if someone there could possibly have a lok at the record and see if they can read the name.

I have done this in the past and they are very helpful and most of the staff are used to reading what is written on old certificates.

Kath. x

Hi guys;
Thanks for all your help. I have just received the birth certificate for Caroline Smith as Astra suggested. It is the same family. Her father was Jonathan Smith as in the 1851/1861 census. Her mother is named as Susanna Smith. My next problem is the only word on the birth certificate I can't read is Susanna's maiden name. Has anyone any ideas, what I can do next.

Anne

I think that there were two daughters. Emma and Charlotte so Caroline could belong to either of them.

If you buy the birth certificate that Astra posted earlier then it should at least name her mother. Do you know if her grandparents had a daughter at all?

EDIT - Looks like her grandparents DID have a daughter called Emma born c.1852 so it's possible that she is Caroline's mother:-

1861 census transcription details for: Rumburgh

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09
Piece: 1181
Folio: 37
Page: 1
Reg. District: Blything
Sub District: 2 Halesworth
Parish: Rumburgh
Enum. District: 11
Ecclesiastical District: Norwich
City/Municipal Borough:

Address: Rumburgh
County: Suffolk

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born

SMITH, John Head Married M 45 1816 Agricultural Labourer
Rumburgh, Suffolk
SMITH, Caroline Wife Married F 40 1821
Fressingfield, Suffolk
SMITH, James Son Unmarried M 18 1843 Agricultural Labourer
St Margaret Whitehall, Suffolk
SMITH, Jonathan Son M 12 1849
Halesworth, Suffolk
SMITH, Emma Daughter F 9 1852
Halesworth, Suffolk<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Kath. x

Sometimes fathers of illegitimate children are named in a baptism register.

Gwyn

Thank you all for your help. Vera has found the right family and as you say it looks like Caroline born 1872 Westhall was raised by her grandparents as per the 1881 census. I can only presume one of their sons i.e. George, James or Jonathan was her father. Which one though I don't know and I am struggling how to find out. As for the marriage, yes she married George Smith Howells in Wangford in 1892 ref 4a 1035 and I do have a copy of the marriage certificate but as I explained her fathers name is not on it.

Anne

1851


SMITH, John Head Married M 33 1818 Farm Labourer
Rumburgh, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Caroline Wife Married F 30 1821
Fressingfield, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, George Son M 11 1840
Rumburgh, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, James Son M 7 1844
St Margaret's, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Charlott Daughter F 3 1848
Rumburgh, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Jonathan Son M 1 1850
Halesworth, Suffolk VIEW
Piece: 1803
Folio: 590
Page: 37
Registration District: Blything
Civil Parish: Halesworth
Municipal Borough:
Address: Mill Hill, Halesworth
County: Suffolk

1861
Sex Age Birth Year Occupation
Disability Where born Image
SMITH, John Head Married M 45 1816 Agricultural Labourer
Rumburgh, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Caroline Wife Married F 40 1821
Fressingfield, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, James Son Unmarried M 18 1843 Agricultural Labourer
St Margaret Whitehall, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Jonathan Son M 12 1849
Halesworth, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Emma Daughter F 9 1852
Halesworth, Suffolk VIEW
Piece: 1181
Folio: 37
Page: 1
Registration District: Blything
Civil Parish: Rumburgh
Municipal Borough:
Address: Rumburgh
County: Suffolk


Regards Vera

1881 for ref.


SMITH, John Head Married M 65 1816 Farmer Of 47 Acres Employing 1 Labour
Rumburgh, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Caroline Wife Married F 60 1821
Fressingfield, Suffolk VIEW
GOOCH, John Grand Son Single M 11 1870 Scholar
Westhall, Suffolk VIEW
SMITH, Caroline Grand Daughter Single F 9 1872 Scholar
Westhall, Suffolk VIEW
Piece: 1896
Folio: 17
Page: 6
Registration District: Wangford
Civil Parish: St Margaret Ilketshall
Municipal Borough:
Address: Grub Lane, St Margaret Ilketshall
County: Suffolk


Regards Vera

Following on from Astra's find, Caroline in 1891 census? Note Grandfather living with her in 1901 census

Name: Caroline Smith
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Westhall, Suffolk, England

Civil parish: Ilketshall St Lawrence
Ecclesiastical parish: Ilketshall St Lawrence
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Wangford
Sub-registration district: Bungay
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1487
Folio: 7
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
John Smith 75 b Rumburgh
Caroline Smith 70
Caroline Smith 19
George Smith 8/12 Grandson

Re: the Dec 1892 marriages - I found a George and Esther Quantrill together in 1901 and I think this is the other pair:

BIRD, Benjaman Head Married M 35 1866 Maltsters Labourer Mettingham, Suffolk
BIRD, Carloine Wife Married F 37 1864 Barnby, Suffolk
BIRD, Ethel Daughter F 8 1893 Bungay, Suffolk
BIRD, Voilet Daughter F 6 1895 Mettingham, Suffolk
BIRD, Maud Daughter F 1 1900 Mettingham, Suffolk

Piece: 1798 Folio: 162 Page: 5
Registration District: Wangford
Civil Parish: Mettingham

Address: Low Road, Mettingham County: Suffolk

EDIT: Think this one's too old. The one that Astra posted above looks much more likely.

If this is her she appears to have been raised by her grandparents.

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 1798
Folio: 5
Page: 2
Reg. District: Wangford
Sub District: Bungay
Parish: Ilketshall St Lawrence
Enum. District: 1
Ecclesiastical District: St Lawrence Ilketshall
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Cottages By, Turnpike Road, Ilketshall St Lawrence, St Lawrence Ilketshall
County: Suffolk
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
HOWELL, Caroline Smith Wife Married F 28 1873
Westhall, Suffolk
HOWELL, George S Son M 10 1891
St Lawrence, Suffolk
HOWELL, Simpson S Son M 7 1894
Spexhall, Suffolk
HOWELL, Thomas S Son M 5 1896
Spexhall, Suffolk
SMITH, John Grand Father Widower M 86 1815
Rumburgh, Suffolk


This will be her birth registration I think

Births Sep 1871 (>99%)
SMITH Caroline Blything 4a 655

Possibly 1892?

Marriages Dec 1892
Bird Benjamin Wangford 4a 1977
GODFREY Esther Wangford 4a 1977
QUANTRILL George Wangford 4a 1977
SMITH Caroline Wangford 4a 1977

If so, was it Benjamin or George that Caroline married?

EDIT

or this marriage?

Marriages Mar 1892
HOWELL George Smith Wangford 4a 1035
Smith Caroline Wangford 4a 1035

Who did she marry please and can you confirm the date was 1894?

Hi Vera

She is Caroline Smith; there is no occupation for her on her marriage certifcate; she is 20 at the time of her marriage; and she was marriage in the registration district of Wangford in Suffolk. The witnesses on the certificate are relations of the bridegroom.

Anne

It is worth tracking the person back and forward in census incase any clues can be found.
I have a marriage certificate for 1902 where the bride's father is not named, but research showed that he actually registered her birth with her mother's maiden surname.

Gwyn

Sorry, but you have very little chance of getting the info.

No father's name on cert means illegitimate

Hi,
Whats the name, age, occupation and place, named on the marriage certificate please? What are the names of the witness' on the marriage certificate please?

Regards Vera