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When Did Uncle Jim Go to India Interesting Update

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 2 Nov 2013 07:36

Great result Jude, interesting man, Uncle Jim.

Well Done

Chris :)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 1 Nov 2013 21:12

What a wonderful and interesting outcome, Jude!

Many thanks for letting us know about it.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 1 Nov 2013 17:58

So last night I spent a wonderful evening with my cousin and her son (and several glasses of wine) :-) Michael has "inherited" all of Uncle Jim's stuff simply because his mum didn't have room and his grandmother hated them (his grandparents lived with uncle Jim in his house until he died).

Amongst the treasures he has:

A sandalwood travel chest
Indian incense burners
The plaque off his door - mahogany bearing the inscription "J N Irvine Chief Inspector Bengal Police"
His medals (all issued under the reign of King George V
A Ghurkha khuri in what I am sure is solid silver and ebony with an inscription on the blade amongst some well used scratchings of India
HisGlengarry with A&S badge
His kepi
And some wonderful wonderful wonderful pictures of the A&S in Malta and India

A veritable treasure trove of history....

I can only believe that he transferred from the A&S to the Bengal police before the regiment sailed back to England and war.
I can find no trace of Oyuki after they sailed back in November 1926 so I think my cousin's memories are skewed by the mementoes and not the person...unless someone can find them returning as a married couple.

I'm not really expecting anyone to find anything more...I just wanted to share this wonderful history with you all. Because that's why we all do it! :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 11 Apr 2013 18:37

A fantastic update from my cousin...

Forgot to tell you that Uncle Jim was in the Argyle and Sutherland Highland regiment (now disbanded) and went to India with the regiment, not sure how he then transferred to the Bengal Police or whether the poor Indians were governed by the army. Have got great photos of him in the regiment in India, he was an officer, but must have been a junior one as when we went to Scotland to do a bit of research we went to Stirling Castle where all memorabilia from the Argyles is kept and they looked up his number which is inside his Glengarry(hat) and he was only mentioned as being in the regiment. I asked if they wanted his stuff which includes his topi(sunhat) and they said yes but they had so much that it may not be displayed so I have given it all to my son.

So he WAS in the A&S...I am guessing he joined up and went up sometime after October 1902 when he was pictured at my gran's wedding (he would have been 18 at the time). And sometime between then and the onset of WW1 he must have transferred to the police as he married after the regiment left India for England and the War. He was only 29 at the onset of WW1 which was younger than my grandad who won the military medal.

I'm hoping the photographs will date things!

Thank you everybody for your help on this thread which also settled another thread (as updated and posted)

:-))

Jude

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 10 Apr 2013 18:54

Update; another cousin, sister of aforementioned cousin, was born in 1936 and moved into Uncle Jim's house with her parents when she was a few months old. Which suggests he bought the house fairly quickly after his return in 1935.

She has photos and a police badge "J N Irvine - Chief Inspector of Bengal Police".

Her stories sound like something out of It ain't half hot mum!!!!!

So the only thing left to work out is how/when/why he went to India in the first place. The 1911 census Chris Ho found with 2nd Kent Regiment looks ok but did they then go to India? And was there time for him to be discharged/leave before WW1 began?

I guess short of commandeering Dr Who and his TARDIS I'll never find out :-)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Apr 2013 17:25

Correction to my previous post:

Have just discovered there was a second Mauretania!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Mauretania_%281938%29#World_War_II_.281939.E2.80.931947.29

So maybe your grandmother was right!

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 6 Apr 2013 17:07

AG thanks for that - my dad was only 8/9 in 1934/5 so again this must have been from his mum and, much as we all loved her, I think she "fantasised" a bit. I think the 1935 voyage was the one "back for good".

All I know after 1935 was that he was at his niece's wedding in 1940 and that he bought a house in Newport sometime around then.

Well, my horse didn't win the national :-(

I might make a donation - because I AM intrigued :-)


ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Apr 2013 16:13

Re the £20 minimum donation:
If anyone reading this lives near enough to Stirling to visit the museum in person, perhaps they could enquire on your behalf.
The website says there's no specific charge made for that, although of course they're glad of any donation.

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Apr 2013 16:07

Jude -
You said, "My dad seemed to think he came back for good on the Mauritania?"

He can't have come home "for good" on the Mauritania, as the ship's final voyage was in 1934..
http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/mauretania/story-final.html

Perhaps the return to the UK in 1935 was the "return for good"?
Have you reason to think he went away again after 1935?

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 6 Apr 2013 16:02

Yes AG I had seen this....it costs £20 minimum donation :-)

Not sure if my gran's "memory" of her brother quite warrants it ;-)

Perhaps if my horse wins the national I might :-D

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 6 Apr 2013 14:55

Maybe try this?

Click on Museum in list on left of page, then Research Enquiries.

http://www.argylls.co.uk/

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Apr 2013 13:10

ok some more hearsay...my dad remembers his mother telling him that Uncle Jim was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in India.

They were certainly in India (Dinapore) when WW1 broke out in July 1914. However, as Uncle Jim married in October 1914, he must have left the regiment (if he was ever in it). My gran also told my dad her other brother, Robert, died in the Tay Bridge Disaster. At that time he was only nine and, in 1891 he is present at the same census as my gran!! So pinch of salt needed :-)

Any suggestions as to how I might find out if indeed he was posted to India with the regiment and then became a police officer over there?

In searching found a great picture of the regiment in India with a HUGE snake! Not sure which year it is and can't see anyone who resembles him :-) :-D

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 5 Apr 2013 13:10

ok some more hearsay...my dad remembers his mother telling him that Uncle Jim was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in India.

They were certainly in India (Dinapore) when WW1 broke out in July 1914. However, as Uncle Jim married in October 1914, he must have left the regiment (if he was ever in it). My gran also told my dad her other brother, Robert, died in the Tay Bridge Disaster. At that time he was only nine and, in 1891 he is present at the same census as my gran!! So pinch of salt needed :-)

Any suggestions as to how I might find out if indeed he was posted to India with the regiment and then became a police officer over there?

In searching found a great picture of the regiment in India with a HUGE snake! Not sure which year it is and can't see anyone who resembles him :-) :-D

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 4 Apr 2013 20:55

OK...so He was at my gran's wedding in October 1902.

I can't find him (for sure) in 1911

He marries in India in 1914

So just when did he go to India? I have found (on FMP) a Mr J Irvine (Gent!!!) of indeterminate age travelling from London to Calcutta in 1909 - I can't prove this is him but I can't come up with anything better.

I can find him coming back in 1935 and I know he was at a wedding in Newport in 1940 (pix to prove!)

So can anyone find anything else?

My dad seemed to think he came back for good on the Mauritania?

I also have a photo of him and my uncle dated "about 1930" - when according to me he was abroad. Trying to tie this down a bit but looking at the photo he does look about 10 years younger than he does at the wedding in 1940 :-S

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 4 Apr 2013 09:05

What a good find Jude, well done there.

Chris :)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 4 Apr 2013 08:56

Well I saw my dad yesterday. My dad was born July 1926 and, while he knows of Yuki, he does not ever remember seeing her.

He always thought there were whispers and rumours that something "was not quite right".

Anyway, looking through the immigration/emigration records, it is always mentioned that he lived in/was going to live in India...so I tried FHS India marriages and look what I found

parents: James Irvine
spouse: Oyuki Takamoto
Name James Neish Irvine
Birth Date 1886
Birthplace
Age 28
Spouse's Name Oyuki Takamoto
Spouse's Birth Date 1886
Spouse's Birthplace
Spouse's Age 28
Event Date 26 Oct 1914
Event Place Calcutta, Bengal, India
Father's Name James Irvine
Mother's Name
Spouse's Father's Name Genzo Takamoto
Spouse's Mother's Name
Race
Marital Status
Previous Wife's Name
Spouse's Race
Spouse's Marital Status
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name
Indexing Project (Batch) Number M75046-2
System Origin India-EASy
GS Film number 527909
Reference ID

Whoo hoo!

I am assuming he was a police inspector in India. Not quite sure when he went out there though - that's the next challenge!

The last record I have of him in Wales - that I am absolutely sure is him - is a photograph at my grandparents' wedding in October 1902

Jude

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 3 Apr 2013 13:00

You're welcome!
What fascinating stuff! No wonder genealogy research is so addictive.

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 12:04

Argyllgran - I cannot thank you enough.

Having downloaded the "death at Sea" of my great grandfather, I Googled the vessel name and Gibraltar 1893 and this is what I came up with

She arrived at Gibraltar on the 12th November with 10 ton of coal in her bunkers, and having there taken in 160 tons of coal, she left for Rotterdam on the same day, since which date she has not been heard of.

On the 29th November 1893 the body of James Laurence, the steward, was found in the Chenal du Four to the S.E. of Ushant, and about the same time the body of a lad was found on the Isle de Sein, and a lifebuoy marked Ropner & Co. was also found at Ushant. On the 10th December 1893 three bodies with lifebelts round them, marked Ropner & Co., were picked up near Penmarch, and early in January 1894 two more bodies were found on the Isle de Sein.

According to the evidence, this vessel was in good and seaworthy condition as regards her hull, machinery, and equipment. We were not able to ascertain her draught on leaving Gibraltar, but having regard to the amount and weight of cargo and bunker coal which she carried, we have no reason to doubt that she had the freeboard required by the Committee of Lloyds. We have also come to the conclusion that as laden she had sufficient stability.

We should here also refer to the fact that her chief engineer had sailed in her for a period of 12 years. which we assume he would not have done unless he was satisfied with her behaviour.

My great grandfather was the 2nd engineer

T^hank you :-)

HeyJudeB4Beatles

HeyJudeB4Beatles Report 3 Apr 2013 11:29

Argyllgran...thanks for the link. Didn't help me with Yuki but I finally found the deaths at sea of my great grandfather and my grand uncle!

Dea...I don't doubt it :-) ....I'll see what my dad says. My cousin is adamant about dressing up in her kimonos at his house which later became her father's house.

Jude

Dea

Dea Report 3 Apr 2013 09:56

Jude,

It is not impossible for her to remember things from the age of 4.

I have vivid memories of my aunt and uncle's wedding when I was 'just' 3. - I can describe being carried, high up on someone' shoulders under an arch of flowers and wearing a pretty dress. Then afterwards I can describe the room we were in and what was happening.

I also remember the party my grandparents had for their golden wedding when I was only just 4.

In fact, I can remember and describe lots of things from around that age a lot easier than I can remember what I went upstairs for 2 minutes ago these days ;-) :-D :-D

Dea Xxx