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Mmm strange one this but thanks again all xx

On the 1891 Matilda Gill (as posted above shown as married crossed out and single then written) is living at 25 Cirencester St (same as the address on the 1895 marriage for Matilda Isaacs); there is a John Day (with father John, painter) living at 23 but he is only 15 and age on 1895 marriage is 22 - 18 in 1891.

WOW !!!!! That's a lot to think about ,think I will have to print it out so I can look at it more closely.

Iv looked on all the census records and can't find a Matilda with fathers name John. On her marriage certificate one of the witnesses is an Ellen Isaacs could she be a sister .Cant find Ellen Isaacs either at the mo.

Thank you so much for the help on this .x

On Frances Murray I have sent for a couple of certs which were wrong i'm sure they were the one's mentoined as I don't have them anymore I searched out people with them in their tree's and gave them to them. <3

So if the Burders and Days were neighbours (if I'm understanding you correctly, Potty) maybe young Alfred was just spending the night with the Days?

EDIT: Or do you mean John and his wife Matilda were neighbours before their marriage?

The Matilda who married Alfred Burder doesn't seem to be the same one who married John Day. The marriage record gives her father as James Isaacs (deceased) bricklayer. John and his father both painters. Witnesses Herbert James Hyett and Ellen Isaacs. John living at 23 Cirencester St and Matilda at 25

Matilda's sister Louisa, and her stepfather William Gill?

Still don't see her in 1871 or 1881 with father William Isaacs.

Finallly going to step away from the computer for a while!

Matilda in 1881 - the address (39 Cirencester St is the same as on the 1885 marriage) - the surname does seem to change from Gill to Isaacs; Matilda is shown as Spinster on the marriage, aged 21:


1881 England Census
about Matilda Gill
Age:15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William Gill
Mother's Name: Susan Gill
Gender: Female
Where born: Paddington, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Paddington
Street Address:
39 Cirencester Street
Occupation:Artificial Flower Maker
Registration District:Kensington
Sub-registration District:St Mary Paddington

William Gill 40
Susan Gill 30
Louisa Gill 17
Matilda Gill 15

Mystery deepens!

The Isaacs/Burder marriage is on Ancestry:

Brides father: William Isaacs, Tradesman

Witnesses are William Gill and Louisa Isaacs

Gwyn -
It's so dangerously addictive - should come with a health warning!
I waste hours on end with this stuff!

Have you discounted these for Fanny?

Births Mar 1857 (>99%)
Murray Fanny St George in the East 1c 436
Murray Frances Elizabeth Poplar 1c 663

argyllgran
.......Glad I'm not the only one who gets drawn in to other people's trees.

You wouldn't believe how many John DAY, decorators, I found last night, when trying to help with this......

Gwyn

Back to the subject -
a couple of possibilities for Ellen's birth:

Births Jun 1899 (>99%)
Day Ellen Poplar 1c 613

Births Dec 1899 (>99%)
Day Ellen Stepney 1c 364

Is this Ellen? Her father's a house painter:


1911 England Census about Ellen Day
Name: Ellen Day
Age in 1911: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1901
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Paddington
Civil Parish: Paddington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Hasborough St
Occupation: SCHOOL
Registration District: Paddington
Registration District Number: 1
Sub-registration District: Paddington Central
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Piece: 58
Household Members:
Name Age
John Day 38
Matilda Day 44
John Day 15
George A Day 14
Ellen Day 10
Lilian Day 7

Here's the family in 1901:


1901 England Census about Matilda Day
Name: Matilda Day
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Day
Gender: Female
Where born: Paddington, London, England

Civil Parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Paddington
Sub-registration District: St Mary, Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 203
Piece: 2
Folio: 117
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
John Day 29
Matilda Day 35
George Day 5
John Day 3
Alfred Burder 14 - son
James Bradshaw 55

This starts a whole other mystery, which I know is not relevant to Bighen's OP, but I got sidetracked onto it for ages last night. These people have nothing to do with my tree, and I'm not asking anyone to solve the mystery - I'm just throwing it into the pot! Felt I had to share it with someone!
This seems to be Matilda and (her son?) Alfred in 1891:


1891 England Census about Alfred Burder
Name: Alfred Burder
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Gender: Male
Where born: Paddington, London, England

Civil Parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Paddington
Sub-registration District: St Mary Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 5a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2
Folio: 7
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
William Gill 56
Louisa Gill 40 - think this should be 46, mistranscribed.
Matilda Gill 25 - born c1866, Marylebone, listed as married, then that's scored out & replaced by "S"
Louisa Gill 27
Alfred Burder 4 - no relationship listed

I can't find any marriage between Matilda Gill and John Day, 1891 - 1901.
But there's this marriage - right husband, time-frame, place:
Marriages Sep 1895 (>99%)
Day John Paddington 1a 81
Isaacs Matilda Paddington 1a 81

There's also this marriage:

Marriages Sep 1884 (>99%)
BURDER Alfred Kensington 1a 242
Isaacs Matilda Kensington 1a 242

And this looks like Alfred junior's birth:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Alfred William Burder
Name: Alfred William Burder
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Feb 1887
Father's Name: Alfred Burder
Mother's Name: Matilda Burder
Parish or Poor Law Union: Paddington St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Westminster
Register Type: Parish Registers

Can't find a birth for Matilda Gill in the right place c1866, but there are two Matilda Isaacs:
Births Sep 1865 (>99%)
ISAACS Matilda Whitechapel 1c 381
ISAACS Matilda Marylebone 1a 524

So (hypothetical question), is Matilda Gill the same person as Matilda Isaacs/Burder, or does she just happen to have the same YOB & POB? (And some connection with Alfred Burder Jr.)
If she's the same person, did her parents change their surname (where are they in earlier years?), or is William her stepfather - in which case I can't find a marriage for William and Louisa - unless Louisa was married before:
Marriages Mar 1862 (>99%)
Brook Charles Henry Stepney 1c 651
Isaac Louisa Stepney 1c 651

Marriages Sep 1867 (>99%)
BROOKE Louisa Mary A Marylebone 1a 902
Gill William Marylebone 1a 902

In which case, were Matilda & sister Louisa illegitimate?

And so it goes on - endlessly fascinating!
As I said, I'm not asking anyone to follow this up - it's not relevant to Bighen's question.

I maybe thought that MarieCeleste,and Jude no cant find her on 1861 anywhere very strange as cant find her father either.
Wasn't sure we would get any further but I really appreciate all your help x

Pam

In your tree on Ancestry you don't appear to have the 1861 census? Have you found her in 1861?

Jude

bighen - regarding Frances/Fanny Murray, quite possible her birth as never registered. There were no penalties pre 1874 if a birth wasn't registered so many weren't.

Yes that's her they were a lodger James Hunt and mother in law Edith Hoskins who was also the informant on the death record.

This is her....?
Deaths Jun 1930
Hoskins Ellen C M ..28 ..Willesden 3a 288


Who were the witnesses at her marriage...?

Gwyn

No I saw that one its def 1900-1901 she was we think an only child

Could Ellen have been older....or perhaps this one connects to the family in some other way...?

Births Dec 1892

Day Helena Constance M ... Kingston 2a 290