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Royal street lambeth 1841 census

ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Michael

Michael Report 3 Jan 2014 15:57

My subject, Jane Baird, is not listed with her husband and family in the 1841 census but there is a Jane Baird listed at the above address. Does anyone know if this address was an institution or hospital ?

Flip

Flip Report 3 Jan 2014 16:26

It's been badly transcribed on ancestry - there appears to be only the bottom 4 people bulked into the same household

Jane Baird
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Female

Civil Parish: Lambeth
Hundred: Brixton (Eastern Division)
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View Image

Registration District: Lambeth
Sub-registration District: Lambeth Church First
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1057
Book: 9
Folio: 53
Page Number: 44
Household Members: Name Age
Elizah Deville 55
Ursula Deville 53
Emily Deville 13
Louis Deville 7
Catherine Whealer 65
Eliza Whealer 35
Georgeana Whealer 20
Thomas Barber 20


Ann Barringer 13
Harriet Barringer 12
Jane Baird 30
Maria Southern 63

The previous people were in Crozier street, and part of different households. Although I don't know whether it is an institution from the image, but none of the 4 were born in county.

Added, according to FMP it was a household, not an institution.

Cynthia

Cynthia Report 4 Jan 2014 12:04

I'll let Michael know about his replies Flip. I imagine he has encountered some problems with the slowness of the site :-(

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 4 Jan 2014 13:43

1841
BAIRD, Geoe M 30 1811 (Musician)
BAIRD, Geoe M 7 1834
BAIRD, Julia F 3 1838 Surrey
BAIRD, Charles M 5 1836 Surrey
BAIRD, Henry
Piece: 1057
Book/Folio: 9/40
Page: 18
Registration District: Lambeth
Civil Parish: Lambeth
Municipal Borough: Lambeth
Address: Carlisle Street, Lambeth, Lambeth Church First
County: Surrey

Chris :)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1332637

(relating above)

Michael

Michael Report 6 Jan 2014 15:06

Thank you for your help. I have tried every record going to find the birth of George Baird 1811 to find out who his parents were with no luck.

I cannot find any record of Jane and George's marriage either. I got Charles' birth certificate and it just says Jane so no help there.

Jane died in childbirth in 1843 but I was puzzled as to why she was not with her family on he 1841 census.

Its driving me mad trying to find this family.

Any clever person able to help please ?

:-(

Reggie

Reggie Report 6 Jan 2014 15:14

You will not find a marriage using freebmd......try looking for one on Ancestry.....or on familysearch

You cannot have got a birth cert for Charles.........certs were not issued before July 1837

As for why Jane was not with the family in 1841...perhaps she was simply visiting a friend......or relation

Censuses record people in a given household on one specific night............

Did the child born 1843 survive? Was its birth registered?

Reggie

Reggie Report 6 Jan 2014 15:16

Having seen your other thread - get the cert of George's marriage to Elizabeth to find out his father's name

And please note that site guidelines state ONE post per topic

Catherine

Catherine Report 6 Jan 2014 18:56

The only child, that is in the 1841 census, to born after 1837 is Henry so why not buy a copy of his birth certificate to find out mother's maiden name?
This may make it easier to find a marriage between George and Jane,'if' the couple did indeed get married.

Good idea, from Reggie, to get a copy of George's second marriage too. Without this it is practically impossible to move forward with any certainty.

You should also note that, if 1841 census, is the Jane you are looking for, then it does state that she was NOT born in the county.


Also, 1851 census shows that there is a daughter Mary Ann-

Name: Mary A Baird
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George Baird
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Baird
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Surrey, England

................have you found her in 1841 (she may be with her mother or other family members) ?

Can't see a birth for Mary Ann, but there is this:-

Births Jun 1838 (>99%)
BAIRD Marianne Lambeth 4 263

..............so wondering if this is her?
....................................................................................................


Just to note that daughter Julia doesn't show with the family in 1851 as she died in 1846:-

London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980 about Julia Jesse Baird
Name: Julia Jesse Baird
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1846
Burial Date: 18 Feb 1846
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Parish or Poor Law Union: Westminster St Mary Le Strand
Borough: Westminster
Register Type: Bishop's Transcript


Michael

Michael Report 7 Jan 2014 07:55

Thank you Cynthia for all your help. Very grateful and I now have a few more ideas

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 7 Jan 2014 11:54

Michael - On the 1841 census for Carlisle Street for George Baird and his family, there is a cross to the left between George and his son George.

I would take this to mean that, when being written up, Jane was accidently left off, so added later on with the address of Carlisle Street next to her name.

The same applies on the sheet before the Baird family, where Leandra Barringer should have been fitted in.

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 7 Jan 2014 12:04

On the 1851 census, George Baird claims to have been born at St. Martins.

There are these two baptisms for St.Martins, both on 30th August 1820

Phoebe Baird

Julia Ann Baird

Both with parents James Baird (a musician) and Mary Elizabeth

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 7 Jan 2014 12:54

The above James Baird died in 1853. He left property in his will to his wife Mary Elizabeth, and his children - Mary Ann Baird, Julia Ann Whitehead, Phebe Baird, William Henry Baird and Charlotte Baird.

So no mention of a George. Maybe not the right one then. Although James does state in his Will that the above are "five of my children". Perhaps implying that he had more than five, but left some out. :-|

Michael

Michael Report 26 Jan 2014 12:13

The following seems so complicated can anyone give me a fresh look please

George Baird 1811 – 1870

Although I do not have a birth certificate for Charles Baird (he was born before 1837) I believe that his father was George Baird because the baptismal records show that Charles’ parents were called George Baird and Jane. This ties in with the 1841 census which shows George and Charles living together in Lambeth. (All four children were christened at the same time so it is the correct family).
The 1851 census states George was born in Middx. I have not been able to find any evidence of a George Baird born in London (Middx) or anywhere else in London in 1811 but there was a Thomas Baird born in 1811 in Middx whose parents were Thomas Baird and Elizabeth. The birth place was Bread Street, Cheapside, Middx. This may well have been `George’
The 1841 census shows George and four of his children living in Carlisle Street, Lambeth but no partner or wife on census night.
I looked everywhere for a marriage certificate for George but without success. I then sent off for the birth cert of Henry (the only one of the older children to be born after 1837) The birth cert states that his father is George Thomas Baird and his mother JANE Baird formerly Bagley. The father is again listed as a music writer. , Henry was born 60 Carlisle Street 1840.(same address as 1841census)
However, Jane is not shown on the 184l census and neither is Mary who was born in 1839 (Mary shows up on the 1851 census) and despite very extensive searches over a great many sources I can only find one Jane Baird who is the correct age at Royal Street on the night of the 1841 census. However there is a problem with this particular census and she may in fact be at Carlisle Street.
The next logical step was to find a record of Jane and George’s marriage but, again, after an exhaustive search no record could be found.
I managed to find death certificates for them both, I found the one I believe to belong to George. He died in1870 in Long Acre, London. aged 59 The certificate states that his wife was Elizabeth (more of that later) and his occupation was music copyist.
I could not find a death certificate for Jane Baird. However, I did find a certificate for a Jane Beaird who died in 1843 aged 32. The certificate states that she was the wife of George Beaird (writer of music).
Jane died in childbirth and the informant was Jesse Bagley. So I am pretty sure this is the correct entry.
I then went back to Elizabeth Baird and found that on the 1851 census she was living with George and five children (four of whom were listed with Jane as their mother)
I then assumed, wrongly, that Elizabeth had married George after Jane had died but I could not find anywhere a record of their marriage. However I did eventually find a record of a marriage between Elizabeth Anderson and George Baird in 1841 (three years before the pregnant Jane died).
I then thought I may have the wrong family so I sent off for the youngest child, William’s birth cert (1845) which states that his father was James Baird and his mother was Elizabeth Baird, nee Anderson The birth certificate of William unfortunately only gives the address of the hospital where he was born.
The only other conclusion as far as I can see which is extremely unlikely is that there is another Baird (George) married to another Elizabeth with a son of the same name born the same year.
The only record we have of George next is in1851 living in Little Russell Street Westminster with Elizabeth and the children.
In 1861 George and Elizabeth were living in Walworth London.
With regard to the children of Jane and Elizabeth, I believe William died in 1861 aged 15, George died in 1843 aged 9,Julia died in 1846 aged 8,.
So, at the moment we are dealing with a Thomas/James/George Baird.
Jane Bagley was born in Aldgate London on the 28th May 1811. Her parents were George Bagley and Elizabeth.

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 27 Jan 2014 08:06

I can't help but feel that the James Baird, mentioned above, was in some way connected to your George

This is the family in 1851

9, Leigh Street, Finsbury

James Baird - head - 64 - musician - Southwark
Mary E. Baird - wife - 62 - musician - St.Sepulchre
Mary A. Baird - dau - 44 - musician - Southwark
Phoebe Baird - dau - 30 - musician - St.Clement Dane
William H. Baird - son - 25 -musician - St.Clement Dane
Charlotte Baird - dau - 18 - musician - St.George the Martyr

Your George Baird also claims to have been born at St.Clement Dane

It's an (unhelpful) possibility that George fell out with his father, which is why he was left off the Will.

I think it unusual wording that James Baird left items to "five of my children" rather than "my five children", or just "my children"

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 27 Jan 2014 08:19

I think this may be him:

St. Saviour, Southwark

Baptism - 15th January 1812

George Thomas - son of James Beard musician and Mary

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 27 Jan 2014 09:52

I've not been able to find the marriage for George Baird and Elizabeth Anderson that you mention. But, if you send off for the certificate, it will confirm George's father's name.

His children lived longer than you thought.

George married Clara Carr in 1856. William George married Elizabeth Ouzman in 1868. The four of them are living together on the 1871 census.

EDIT I've just spotted a 1841 marriage for Elizabeth Anderson and a James Baird
She was a widow though, and her maiden name was Matthews. So not your Elizabeth

ChristinaS

ChristinaS Report 27 Jan 2014 14:11

I've got nothing to add here. I'm just going over things to myself.

So William George Baird's father was James! :-S

I see the baptism for him, which says that James was a copyist.

On the marriage for James Baird and Elizabeth Anderson (Whose maiden name was Matthews) James' occupation is green grocer. But his father is a musician. I can't read his father's name. Can you read it? I think it might say Jas.

Was James the brother of George? This is so confusing. I can't see an appropriate baptism for James.

Can you please let us know the address where Jane Baird died in 1843.