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I think the penny has just dropped! Emma had her son Thomas aged 19 years and no husband on the certificate because she was not married. So perhaps Thomas's father is Arthur Rackman as stated grooms father. Later, I know that Emma went on to marry James Frederick high! :-D

Vicky, Thanks for sharing the military image for John Kershaw, it's really interesting. I found his family in Littleborough, at the address given - his mother Alice was a widow by 1901, but his father from earlier census was Joseph. I think you may find this interesting, there is a grandson on the 1911 census:

Alice Kershaw
Age in 1911:65
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1846
Relation to Head:Wife
Gender:Female
Birth Place:Littleborough, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Littleborough
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England
Street address:3 Box Street Littleborough Nr Manchester
Marital Status:Widowed
Registration district:Rochdale
Registration District Number:470
Sub-registration district:Littleborough
ED, institution, or vessel:8
Piece:24692
Household Members:NameAge

Alice Kershaw 65
Annie Alma Kershaw 26
Granville Kershaw 35
John Granville Kershaw 9 << Born Portsmouth

Births: 1901
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KERSHAW John Granville Portsmouth 2b469

Something went wrong with my last post - he was registered in the June quarter of 1901. I don't think it's Granville's son, as he was in Littleborough in 1901.

On the military record it does say son (in brackets) giving this same address.....I wonder if he's Edith/Mary Ann's son??? According to his death in Rochdale 1979 his dob was 28/5/1901.

Have been pottering around trying to find Mary Ann on earlier census. I'm assuming that as she married as Mary, and it's got Mary Ann on her death then that is the most likely name she was originally. Though why she changed to Edith is beyond me...

Likely contender in 1891, she isn't with this family in 1901:

Mary Ann Pike
Age:16
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1875
Relation:Daughter
Father's Name:Henry Pike
Mother's name:Mary Ann Pike
Gender:Female
Where born:Henley on Thames, London, England
Civil Parish:Portsea
Ecclesiastical parish:Milton St James
County/Island:Hampshire
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Portsea Island
Sub-registration district:Landport
ED, institution, or vessel:69
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece:877
Folio:10
Page Number:13
Household Members:NameAge

Henry Pike 36
Mary Ann Pike 39
Mary Ann Pike 16
Alice E Pike 15
Henry George W Pike 13
Edith Annie Pike 10
Nellie Pike 6
Annie Pike 3
Charles Arthur Pike 2

I think this is her in 1901, most of the heads of households on the page are navy officers:

Annie Pike
Age:24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation to Head:Servant
Gender:Female
Birth Place:Henley on Thames
Civil Parish:Portsmouth
Ecclesiastical parish:St John
County/Island:Hampshire
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Portsmouth
Sub-registration district:Portsea and Landport
ED, institution, or vessel:49
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece:999
Folio:140
Page Number:9
Household schedule number:21
Household Members:NameAge

Mark E P Frost 41
Alice C M Frost 37
Vernon M P Frost 11
Dorothy B P Frost 8
Emma Frost 73
Mary Eliza M Stapley 23
Annie Pike 24

Flip- I think the 1911 census of Alice is quite interesting. The grandchild born in Portsmouth 1901 would appear to be the son of John as he seems to be the only one of Alice's children in that area. So I have this theory- please tell me if it's way off!

I don't think John Granville is the child of Mary/ Edith Pike- she didn't marry John Kershaw until 1904, so a birth in 1901 should have also been listed under Pike (I don't see one). However it's possible that John married in 1899:

Marriages Jun 1899

Kershaw John Portsea 2b 1139
Thomas Alice Portsea 2b 1139

but then his wife died in 1902:

Alice Kershaw
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Registration Year: 1902
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 28
Registration district: Portsmouth
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 2b
Page: 345

John would then be free to marry again in 1904 to Miss Pike.

I think you may be right Gritty - I did wonder about the birth not being recorded as Pike - so I guess he's no relation to Francis.

There are some crossings out on the military record, but it does say wife. Earlier addresses are for his mother Alice, but then there's an address in Eastney which has been crossed out. Then it says son, and the address in Littleborough as on 1911 census.

1901 for John Kershaw at Priory Road, Portsmouth-

John Kershaw Head Married Male 27 1874 Gunner R M A Littleborough, Lancashire,
Alice Kershaw Wife Married Female 28 1873 Tenby, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Leonard Sutton Boarder Single Male 15 1886 Errand Boy Hampshire, England

Archive reference RG13
Piece number 990
Folio 128
Page 14

I don't know what ancestry has transcribed the 1901 census as - I can't find it. Have you had any luck on FMP with Mary Ann/Edith on 1911? Could be Kershaw, Pike or even Francis......

I don't see anything at the moment for Mary/ Edith- I don't think she'd be under Francis as (if the 1911 census on the first page of this thread is correct) he was still with his first wife in 1911.

In John Kershaw's military record where is he posted in 1911?

From Jan.1911 - Jan.1912 it look like Hibernia (HMS, I presume as there is a vessel of that name), I think the commanding officer's name is John Luce.

I didn't really think she'd be under Francis, but with ducking and diving you never know ;-)

I don't see her- although I think the 1891/ 1901 census that you put above are probably correct, making this Mary's birth:

Name: MARY ANN PIKE
Birth year 1875
Birth quarter 1
District HENLEY
County Oxfordshire
Country England
Volume 3A
Page 503
Record set England & Wales births 1837-2006

Well, we can't find either of them in 1911. But the commanding officer from John's ship is also missing so maybe he was overseas. Who knows.

The one thing that stikes me as odd, Thomas Francis must have known about his mother to have given so much detail on her death reg - like he knew about her husband, her previous name etc. Either he had certificates or she discussed it with him. Guess he took that to the grave, so we'll never know.

Thank you all once again, this is a lot to take in, I shall carefully read through and try to make good sense of it and look at what to do next???

Not sure where you go next, other than to get the marriage certificate to John Kershaw - it's got to be the right one, too much other info points to it. That way you can confirm her father's name, and maybe the witnesses may give a lead.

Not sure if you are interested, but there is a slight twist in this tale. From my notes, I found a death for John Kershaw in Rochdale, the address on the military record when he was de-mobbed was 10 Middle Lane, Rochdale.

There is a death 29/4/1929, and he was of 3 South Lane, Rochdale - probate was granted to Florry Kershaw (his widow) and John Granville Kershaw (his son??). Looks like he married a widow Florry Dickinson (nee Brearley) at St Mary the Virgin, Wardleworth, Rochdale in 1919. It is only the name of John Granville that drew me to this. Florry's husband Gilbert Wood Dickinson was killed in 1917 WW1.

Now this may not be the same John Kershaw, but I'm posting up just in case it comes in useful, and before I loose the scribbles on my notebook!

May I ask as I have never done this before, Could I go to a Portsmouth church or a records office to look up past marraiges etc to gain further information?

Wouldn't be easy Vicky. The registration office can't allow you access to their bmd registers - your only option there would be to order a certificate(s).

The local records office should have parish registers, but you would have to hope the marriage or event was in a church - and then find which one - it could mean hours of trawling through their records - from memory living near Plymouth there were quite a lot of churches! Although saying that you have a vague area.

Also. if it was a civil marriage (or baptism) then you'll never find anything at the archives centre or church. Same might apply to a non-conformist event (ie Catholic or other none CofE) as many don't deposit their records.

Where are you trying to take this, it would help to know so as we know what else to suggest?

Thank you,

ideally I would like to find as many facts around Thomas Francis parents Edith and Thomas and close family relatives in hope to find links of anyone else who have the same members who may have more facts about there life and may be pictures. We would like to understand why Thomas junior knew his mother Edith and as you mentioned provided details at registration but would never discuss her.

I did manage to find true lost relatives 2 -3 years ago with my Hickman family and was hoping for sucess again. I wondered whether it is now worth joining Ancestry to see I can build on my old Hickman tree with all this new information and gain further from there as I think that may be more extensive?

I think I may have mentioned earlier I am hoping to present Marion with a scrapbook of her own family history for Christmas.

:-D

You don't need a subscription to have a tree on ancestry - and if you have your tree on here (or elsewhere) you should be able to upload a gedcom to create the ancestry tree once you register with them.

Thomas appears to have been the only child born to Francis/Pike, so it will be difficult to connect to other family members. Your only real hope would look like tracking down the Francis children from his father's first marriage - look for their marriages & descendants. And then hope the family were close enough to know anything.

We have no way of knowing if Edith/Mary Ann & John Kershaw had any children prior to the 1911 census - as we simply can't find her, and mmn was not recorded until mid 1911. They didn't have any children after they recorded mmn though.

With your Thomas refusing to discuss his past it is quite possible it was not a close family, or a happy one. Or maybe he was just ashamed to have been illegitamate.

For a start, you could check out births for the known children:

Tabitha Sara(h) Francis married in Devon in 1927 to Maurice L Gale. Both died in Devon in 1985.

Minna May Francis married in 1928 to Ernest W B Page, she died (Mina May) in 1989 in Portsmouth

John Granville Kershaw married Eleanor Ratcliffe in Rochdale in 1929. He died in 1979.

All 3 of them appear to have had children...........in the areas they lived and died.