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Francis Holderness was the brother of my Gt. Grandmother and was born in Preston Lancashire 1864 and died the same year. His sister Margaret Alice Holderness was also born in Preston Lancashire 1862. On her birth certificate it says her father was George but on her marriage certificate it says Joseph. Would be grateful if someone could look up her brothers birth and see if his fathers name is mentioned. I've looked at some sites but only say when he was born. Maybe I'd be better getting his certificate.
Thank you

This is the GRO reference for his birth certificate (you can't see father's name without buying the certificate unfortunately):-

First name(s) FRANCIS
Last name HOLDERNESS
Birth year 1864
Birth quarter 1
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District Preston
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8E
Page 468
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006

Kath. x

Both have the mmn Walls


HOLDERNESS, FRANCIS WALLS Order
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 468

HOLDERNESS, MARGARET ALICE WALLS Order
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 465

This looks like his mother in the 1861 census and her husband is George:-

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
86, Meadow Street, Preston, Lancashire, England


First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

George Holderness Head Married Male 24 1837 Joiner Preston, Lancashire, England
Jane Holderness Wife Married Female 33 1828 House Keeper Lancashire, England
Anne Maria Holderness Daughter - Female 2 1859 Nil Preston, Lancashire, England
Richard Henry Holderness Son - Male 0 1861 - Preston, Lancashire, England
Margaret Germond Visitor Single Female 38 1823 Dressmaker Lancashire, England

Kath. x

Margaret 1871

Name: Margaret Alice Holderness
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Preston
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: Preston
ED, institution, or vessel: 54
Household schedule number: 185
Piece: 4211
Folio: 24
Page Number: 41
Household Members:
Name Age
Maria Staniforth 44
Jane Holderness 39
Margaret Alice Holderness 8

Andy

The 1871 census with Margaret Alice:-

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Melbourne Street, Preston, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

Maria Staniforth Head - Female 44 1827 - Westmorland, England
Jane Holderness Sister-In-Law - Female 39 1832 - Ireland
Margaret Alice Holderness Niece - Female 8 1863 - Lancashire, England

Kath. x

Different MMN HOLDERNESS, RICHARD HENRY GERRARD Order
GRO Reference: 1860 S Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 476

HOLDERNESS, ANNIE MARIA GERRARD Order
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 387

Marriage for above


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1857 (>99%)
Gerrard Jane Preston 8e 578
Holderness George Preston 8e 578

Andy

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription form FMP shows relationships.
Melbourne Street, Preston, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Maria Staniforth Head - Female 44 1827 - Westmorland, England
Jane Holderness Sister-In-Law - Female 39 1832 - Ireland
Margaret Alice Holderness Niece - Female 8 1863 - Lancashire, England

Both Maria and Jane are widows

I think the surname of the visitor on the 1861 census could actually be Gerrard rather than Germond as it is transcribed.

Kath. x

The 1871 census to go with the 1861 posted by Kathleen Bell earlier - the Holderness/Gerrard marriage - so not the right family


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Fishergate Butlers Court, Preston, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George Holderness Head - Male 32 1839 - Lancashire, England
Jane Holderness Wife - Female 42 1829 - Lancashire, England
Annie Maria Holderness Daughter - Female 12 1859 - Lancashire, England
Richard Henry Holderness Son - Male 10 1861 - Lancashire, England
George Holderness Son - Male 6 1865 - Lancashire, England
Jane Alice Holderness Daughter - Female 3 1868 - Lancashire, England

What name does it give for Margaret Alice's mother on her birth certificate please?

As the reference number is the same is this the same person registered with 2 mmn - or 2 Francis Holderness registered on same page with same ref. no.

Not seeing another Francis birth 1864 Preston/Lancs in other bmd's (someone who knows lancs bmd site might know)

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1864
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
HOLDERNESS Francis WALLS Preston Preston PRES/142/54
HOLDERNESS Francis WHITLEY Preston Preston PRES/142/54
Total records matching : 2.

but there is this death (could be in months not years as GRO unable to distinguish)

Name: Age at Death (in years):
HOLDERNESS, FRANCIS 7 Order
GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 257

Sorry Kath but the family on the 1861 census is not the same family as the maiden name of Jane the mother was Gerrard. The mother of Margaret Alice and Francis was Jane Walls.
Patsy

The reply from Greyghost has me intrigued with the Francis Holderness/Francis Whitley as when Jane his mother died in 1899 the death certificate said Jane Whitley widow of George Whitley. Have never found a marriage for Holderness /Whitley and I'm wondering if George changed his surname for some reason or other. Why Margaret Alice put Joseph down as her father on her marriage certificate I don't know.

Family tales say that Jane's husband George decided to make his fortune in Australia so went on his own intending to send for Jane when he made good but she never heard from him for several years and thought he had died. He suddenly turned up and they carried on as if he hadn't been away. Maybe he changed his name in Australia I don't know. Whether his name was Holderness or
Whitley I can't find a death certificate for him anywhere.

I wondered if he went to Australia as a convict and then returned changing his name to Whitley

I think I will send for the birth certificate for Francis and see who is listed for his father.
Patsy

You say that you cant find a death for George? This looks like it

George Holderness

Estimated birth year:abt 1839

Registration Year:1914

Registration Quarter:Oct-Nov-Dec

Age at Death:75

Registration district:Preston

Inferred County:Lancashire
Volume:8e
Page:643
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

George is on every census with Jane until the 1891 where he declares himself a 'widower' but Jane (living with her daughter) declares that she is married and has the name 'Whitley'

Added: I can see Jane on the 1881 census x 2 There is 1 with her daughter and 1 with George? Arghhhhhhhh!

Possibly Jane took up with another man who had the name 'Joseph Whitley' and thus the reason her daughter names 'Joseph' as her father?

1891 Census
George Holderness

Age:52

Relationship:Boarder

Birth Year:1839

Birth Place:Preston, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish:Witton

Registration district:Blackburn

Sub registration district:Witton

ED, Institution or Vessel:5
Piece:3417
Folio:90

Thomas Prior 27
Mary Prior 26
George Holderness 52 <<<<Widowed, Joiner

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1891 Census

Jane Whitley

Age:62

Relationship:Mother-in-law

Birth Year:1829

Child: Margaret A Anyan

Birth Place:Preston, Ireland

Civil Parish:Preston

Ecclesiastical parish:St Mark

Registration district:Preston

Sub registration district:St John

ED, Institution or Vessel:21
Piece:3443
Folio:11


Robert Anyan 30
Margaret A Anyan 28
Jane Anyan 10
Agnes Anyan 9
Elizabeth Anyan 7
Isabella Anyan 6
Alice Anyan 4
Bertha Anyan 1
Jane Whitley 62 <<<Married
----------------------------------------------------------------

If this is the death that you mention, the age is out by about 7 years?

Deaths Mar 1899
Whitley Jane 65 Preston 8e 468
----------------------------------------------------

This one looks more accurate?

Deaths Dec 1909
HOLDERNESS Jane 81 Preston 8e 381
----------------------------------------------------------

I think there are either 2 'Jane' one born Ireland and the other Lancashire or there were a lot of porkie pies going on between this couple!

It looks like the transcriber made a mistake on the entry for Francis 1864. Here is the GRO record for both.

HOLDERNESS, FRANCIS MMN BURRELL
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 547

HOLDERNESS, FRANCIS MMN WALLS
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in PRESTON Volume 08E Page 468

Gins. Francis .Holderness mmn Burrell is the wrong Francis. The one below it is the correct one.
The Jane Whitley who died in 1909 is also incorrect as I have her death certificate for 1899 and the informant was her daughter Margaret Alice. She was living with her daughter at the time of death. According to her certificate her husband whether it be George Holderness or George Whitley was already deceased. On the death certificate it says widow of George Whitley.
All very confusing but thanks for your help.
Patsy

I want to apologise to all who have done their best to help with my conundrum.
I originally said that when Jane Walls/Holderness/Whitley died in 1899 and her husband was listed as George deceased but I've just found the certificate and found that should have read William Whitley deceased.

I've looked in Lancashire b.m.d and the only William Whitley I've found died in 1896 in Heaton but not sure where Heaton is other than Lancashire hold the records. Still can't find a marriage for a William Whitley and Jane Holderness though.
Patsy

The 'sister-in-law' from 1871 census re-married

Marriage: 10 Nov 1872 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Henry Banks - 52, Smith, Widower, Melbourne St
Maria Staniforth - 48, House Keeper, Widow, Melbourne St
Groom's Father: late Henry Banks, Smith
Bride's Father: late Charles Harrison, Lime Burner
Witness: John Banks; Emma Banks, (X)
Married by Banns by: Edmund Lee, Curate
Register: Marriages 1872 - 1873, Page 19, Entry 38
Source: LDS Film 94000

Not sure how the two women actually connect, in view of Maria's father's name