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OH yes NYx. Fantastic. Sure this is the connection Donald Small and Dorothy M Osborne obviously both being the witnesses at the wedding of Charles Henry Butcher and Margaret Osborne. Ingoldsby Road is where the Butchers living at no 39 and Margaret their daughter married Brian Lear living at no 93, now you have found the Smalls and Osbornes living at no 62, they all tie in, wow . So if Dorothy Margaret Osborne was born in 1895 and Margaret Osborne was born in 1916 presume they could be sisters.

I wish I could find her before 1939 though! Dorothy M should be easy to find but she's not!

Yes, I worked on a wharf on the Thames worked with two of the Smalls and they were connected to the McLeods, I also worked with Brian Lear and I do believe his mother remarried to a McLeod so it was a close community in the Ingoldsby Road area.

Perhaps the Osborns births were never registered, that's why so much difficulty in finding them. At least we now know there was no connection at all to the Summers family

It certainly was a close community, I can see the same names cropping up. Very like some of my family who worked on the Thames and when the children married they all seemed to live in the one road lol.

I'll have another look tomorrow and see if I can narrow down where Dorothy was from. :-)

Just looking back at your posts it was Frederick Small who I worked with. Thanks for finding what you have, I will have a look on Ancestry and see what might pop up. If your family worked on the Thames no doubt I may know them,

Too long ago John lol, mine worked on the river up to the early 1920s, watermen and lightermen from Brentford area.
:-)

Oh long before my time lol.

Nyx. Been thinking it all over, suppose Dorothy M Osborne was the mother of Margaret and she seperated from Frederick, the reason why she didn't marry Donald Small until 1944. It was a registry office wedding so a small one and Margaret had to name her father obviously, he wasn't at the wedding thats why Dorothy and Donald were. Now my friend said the family came from Southend ,I have found a marriage for a Frederick James Osborne to Louise Frances. Small in Bethnal Green Mar 1895 so I wonder about this connection

I'm going through all the marriages of a Dorothy M and looking into this one, it being Southend


First name(s) CLARENCE F
Last name OSBORNE
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1919
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ CLARENCE F OSBORNE married
Dorothy M Smith
Spouse's last name Smith
District Rochford
District number -
County Essex
Country England
Volume 4A
Page 1603
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005

Clarence was born Islington 1894 , can't see him on the 1939 reg as yet. His middle name was Frederick taken from

Britain, Trade Union membership registers
First name(s) Clarence Frederick
Last name Osborne
Birth year -
Admission year 1915
Age 20
Occupation/grade Porter
Trade Railway Workers
Union name National Union Of Railwaymen
Union branch Southend
Union branch as transcribed Southend
County Essex
Country England
Archive Modern Records Centre
Archive reference MSS.127/NU/OR/2/41
Folio or page 192
Title General Register
Dates Dec 1914-Mar 1915
Information contained Members 598001-613000
No of volumes 1
Record set Britain, Trade Union Membership Registers
Category Education & work
Subcategory Guild & Trade Associations

Births Dec 1895 (>99%)
Smith Dorothy Margaret Rochford 4a 534

Wondering if this could be Margaret ?

Births Mar 1917 (>99%)
Smith Margaret Smith Rochford 4a 1190

Not seeing Clarence in 1939?

Add: wondering about this one in 1939, children's mmn is Clark

Osborne Household (9 People)
130 Trafalgar Road , Portslade-by-Sea U.D., Sussex, England

Frederick C Osborne 24 Mar 1894 Male Agent Car Mechanic Married 124 1
Alma B Gosper (Osborne) 08 Dec 1908 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Single 124 2
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Frederick (E) Osbourne 03 Jun 1927 Male At School Single 124 4
Ivy D Wren (Osborne) 17 May 1929 Female At School Single 124 5
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Rita V Greenfield (Osborne) 04 Nov 1930 Female At School Single 124 7
George M Osborne 02 May 1932 Male At School Single 124 8
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

Alma Beatrice Osborne married Gosper 1951 , gives 9/12/ 1905 as birth so slightly different, but she seems to be the mother of the Osborne children if this one?

Births Mar 1906 (>99%)
Clark Alma Beatrice Lambeth 1d 388

My friend definetly said his wife Margarets mother was a Small, he would only know it as Small if her mother was Dorothy Margaret Osborne who married Donald Small and she took the name of Small, that's all I can think it was. He hasn't seen the marriage certificate yet for his in laws. Frederick Osborne on certificate is a Tram Driver so don't think it is Clarence Frederick Osborne because he drove trains. Certainly a mystery family

Just looked at marriage certificate again and Frederick was a Tram Conductor not driver bony know how I missed that, must have just glanced at word Tram

No but Clarence Frederick ( even if it is the right marriage) wasn't the father, so I thought perhaps on Margaret's marriage that the alleged father's name and occupation were just added 'randomly' as she was illegitimate ?

Hard to say without buying the various certs :-)

Alma beatrice Clark didn't marry Osborne as far as I can see, though the children are evidently hers , so may indicate he also wasn't free to marry.

Don't know how I can buy certificates if they can't be found , the only one would be marriage of Dorothy M Osborne and Donald Small. I somehow don't think Clarence F Osborne is the correct family because of them coming from Sussex, It seems the Osbornes, Smalls seem to be from either Kent or Essex. I don't know what to think, all seems rather strange

Clarence Frederick/Frederick C lived in Sussex 1939 ( assuming that's him) but wasn't from there, all the children to the Osborne/Clark combination were born Rochford Essex.

I think buying the DorothyOsborne/ Small marriage cert might be worth it, it should say whether she was a widow or divorced.

or the birth cert for this Margaret

Births Mar 1917 (>99%)
Smith Margaret Smith Rochford 4a 1190

Unfortunately it gets expensive when you have to buy just on the offchance it might be the right one :-(

I will try the marriage for Donald and Dorothy Small first. The Rochford Margaret b1917 presume her name Smith with mother of Smith. Yes it does get expensive. I dread to think how much it has cost me over the years

I've been lucky as I had a lot of info to start with and many of mine show up on the LMA marriages and baptisms on Ancestry so I haven't had to spend too much.

The GRO offer on PDFs of births and deaths has been useful though, as it's a little bit cheaper and just confirmed a couple of loose ends.

Hopefully you will come across a bit more, and if I find anything I will add it here :-)

I have just been on GRO to order the marriage very for the Smalls. I went on the birth index and put in Dorothy Margaret Osborne fro 1894 taking her that's her who died ( as Dorothy M Small) 1977 and all that keeps coming up is Dorothy Margaret Osborne b 1894 Bedford , she was the only one.

That's why I think she was born with a different surname and Osborne was first married name rather than birth name .

I searched on freebmd using just Dorothy M born a couple of years either side of 1895 and why I thought she might be this one as the birth qtr matches the date given on death reg in 1977 for Dorothy M Small

Births Dec 1895 (>99%)
Smith Dorothy Margaret Rochford 4a 534

If that is the case I will send for that when the marriage certificate comes back on 15th, next week and perhaps gives more into. The certificates I have sent for has never been for me, mostly for friends, so I do try and keep them to a minimum, that's why I come on here for help before I resort to send for them. Ancestry is a bit restricted.. I do this for a hobby now