Find Ancestors

ok will try next week, thanks

1921 Census Of England & Wales
14 Brookland Terrace, Abercrave, Ystradgynlais Higher, Glamorganshire, Wales

Alice Allen Head Female 1870 51 Oldbury, Worcestershire, England Household Duties -
Mary Ellen Jones Daughter Female 1897 24 Oldbury, Worcestershire, England Home Duties -
John Allen Son Male 1899 22 Oldbury, Worcestershire, England Colliery Under Ground Labourer Abercrave (Out Of Work) Colliery Company
Edith Allen Daughter Female 1905 16 Rowley Regis, Staffordshire, England Home Duties -
William Thomas Allen Son Male 1908 12 Rowley Regis, Staffordshire, England - -
Elizabeth Allen Grandchild Female 1913 8 Abercrave, Breconshire, Wales - -
Richard Stanley Jones Grandchild Male 1920 1 Pontardawe, Glamorganshire, Wales -

Until you get her birth cert, we can't try to find her in 1939 or look for her death. Even then, it may simply not be possible to trace her. It's easy to 'disappear' if one so wishes.
We need you to help us to help you

This still leaves me with no info regarding Mary Ellen Jones /Aallen WHEREABOUTS from the time she abandoned her children in 8th May 1924

Expanding on my post on Page one

JONES, RICHARD STANLEY ALLEN
GRO Reference: 1920 M Quarter in PONTARDAWE Volume 11A Page 2501

JONES, RICHARD STANLEY 10
GRO Reference: 1930 J Quarter in PONTARDAWE Volume 11A Page 922

The OP mentions the child dying by falling into a bog

Merthyr Tydfil Union
Name: Richard Stanley Jones
Record Type: Discharge
Birth Date: 25 Dec 1919
Admission Date: 8 May 1924
Discharge Date: 12 Jul 1924
Discharge Place: Glamorgan, Wales
Father:
Edmund Jones
Mother:
Mary Ellen Jones
Next of Kin Name: Edmund John, Eliz Allen


He was born in Potardawe Workhouse Infirmary, deserted and adopted by the Board until he was 18.


Merthyr Tydfil Union
Name: Elizabeth Allen
Record Type: Discharge
Birth Date: 20 Apr 1913
Admission Date: 8 May 1924
Discharge Date: 12 Jul 1924
Discharge Place: Glamorgan, Wales
Father:
Edmund Jones
Mother:
Mary Ellen Jones
Next of Kin Name: Edmund John Richard Stanley

She was illeg born at Abercrave. She had been transferred from Pontardawe Union and had been deserted by parents.
Notes 13/5/24 warrant for father and mother and to remain
adopted by Board Poor? 1899 ?

Several members seem to have this woman in GR trees -assuming they have taken census info as YoB and not researched properly.

Try making contact

IGNORE the 1954 death I suggested at 16:20 today.

That woman's middle name was Hannah:

JONES, MARY HANNAH 56
GRO Reference: 1954 D Quarter in YSTRADGYNLAIS Volume 08A Page 67

Edmund married in 1913 aged 22

What was HIS occupation? And his address?

I had no idea that they were put in a workhouse after they were abandoned, assumed that Alice my Great Grandmother looked after them from the beginning when Mary disappeared remember my mother telling me that Richard died when falling into a Bog on the Mountain nearby, my mother also told me that her mother (Mary) may have moved to London at some time
will seek to get a copy of Marys BC

I have Edmunds DOB as 1901
Edmunds fathers' occupation Collier
Marys Labourer

Correct as ever ErikaH. :-(

I would imagine though that Michael is still working off the birth year given in census (I could be wrong). I've explained why there may be a difference.

Have also posted the link to the GRO site and explained RD coverage for Oldbury.

Michael - do you know anything more about Edmund - you say born 1897, but 22 at marriage would make that c 1890/1

Did the marriage certificate give occupations of the Fathers and who were the witnesses?.

Greyghost

May I suggest you read Michael’s post of 13.30

I posted the birth earlier ;-) ;-)

Michael only refers to her birth as being in 1898 in his OP, easy to do if only going by census records.

Michael - census asked for age at time of census, so if age 3, they take 3 from ie 1901 and make 1898. However the person could be just 3 or nearly 4 so could be born 1897/98

the year of birth and place of birth are given correctly on the 1921 census

- below will be Mary Ellen's birth registration taken from the GRO site which shows mmn. You need to register, but searches are free. You can order her birth certificate through the site (payment required) and when you have it come back to this thread and let us know her full DOB and other details.

You can order and have a pdf sent to your computer (cheapest option). This could help in finding her death as later deaths give a DOB (as far as the person registering the death knew) or finding her on the 1939 register. Even if the year is wrong, often the day and month are correct.

West Bromwich is the Registration district which covers Oldbury where the 1901 and 1911 census records show she was born (v. close to Rowley Regis where the family are on those census)

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ALLEN, MARY ELLEN SMITH
GRO Reference: 1897 J Quarter in WEST BROMWICH Volume 06B Page 819

The death found by ArgyllGran could be her - too early to give a full DOB but the informant may be a relative. The age would be year out, but that's not unusual, as she would have turned 56 in the first half of 1953 / 57 in 1956. Again order from the GRO site.

My remark was directed at the OP, who persists in saying she was born in 1898 :-S :-S
He should get her birth cert

Yes, but the exact date might be helpful in pinpointing her death.

However, it sounds as if Michael doesn't have her birth cert.



I've wondered about this death - if she was indeed living in Abercraf in 1944, and if maybe her middle name has been entered as Helen instead of Ellen by mistake.
I know it's a stab in the dark!:

Mary H Jones
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Mary H Jones
Death Age: 56
Birth Date: abt 1898
Registration Date: Oct 1954[Nov 1954] [Dec 1954]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Ystradgynlais
Inferred County: Brecknockshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 67

There are far too many Mary Joneses.

Mary Ellen was born in 1897, as per her birth registration which I posted at 11.31

It might help if we knew Mary Ellen's full birth date.

As Edmund and Mary Ellen had both deserted the children by 1924, as in the workhouse record above, it seems possible that Edmund John's CWGC record is misleading.

Perhaps it doesn't mean that Edmund and Mary were together in Abercrave in 1944, but simply that they were his parents. Abercrave may have been assumed, because his widow lived there.

On the other hand, without any evidence one way or the other, they may indeed have got back together between 1924 and 1944.




Possible death of the mother Alice ??

Alice Allen
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Alice Allen
Death Age: 83
Birth Date: abt 1872
Registration Date: Jul 1955[Aug 1955] [Sep 1955]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District: Ystradgynlais
Inferred County: Brecknockshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 64

Only 3 miles away from Abercraf / Abercrave, where she was said to be living in 1924, and she was in .Ystradgynlais in 1921.
The two places are only 3 miles apart.

Edmund John Jones

in the Glamorgan, Wales, Workhouse Registers, 1850-1920

Merthyr Tydfil Union
Name: Edmund John Jones
Record Type: Discharge
Birth Date: 23 Dec 1916
Admission Date: 19 Sep 1921
Discharge Date: 12 Jul 1924
Discharge Place: Glamorgan, Wales
Father:
Edmund Jones
Mother:
Mary Ellen Jones
Next of Kin Name: Elizabeth Allen, Richard Stanley
Address of father: not known
Address of mother: 10 Brookland Terrace, Abercrave


The mother and 3 children, who were deserted by Edmund Jones in 1919, were received by the Pontardawe Union in a non-settled account. The mother deserted the children in Feb 1924, consequently they were admitted to the Pontardawe Workhouse and later transferred here.

Discharged c/o Grandmother Mrs allen, 14 Brookland? Terrace, Abercrave, nr Swansea.


Notes 4/10/1921 Warrant for father still remained and Edmund was adopted to the Board until he was 18.

Richard and Elizabeth are also included.


HAVE EDITED THIS.

The 7 people in the household in 1921.

1) Alice
Allen
1870
Oldbury, Worcestershire, England
Ystradgynlais Higher
Pontardawe
Glamorganshire

2) Mary Ellen
Allen
1897
Oldbury, Worcestershire, England
Ystradgynlais Higher
Pontardawe
Glamorganshire

3) Richard Stanley
Jones
1920
Pontardawe, Glamorganshire, Wales
Ystradgynlais Higher
Pontardawe
Glamorganshire

4) Edith
Allen
1905
Rowley Regis, Staffordshire, England
Ystradgynlais Higher
Pontardawe
Glamorganshire

5) Elizabeth
Allen
1913
Abercrave, Breconshire, Wales
Ystradgynlais Higher
Pontardawe
Glamorganshire

6) John
Allen
1899
Oldbury, Worcestershire, England
Ystradgynlais Higher
Pontardawe
Glamorganshire

7) William Thomas
Allen
1908
Rowley Regis, Staffordshire, England
Ystradgynlais Higher
Pontardawe
Glamorganshire


1911 Census For England & Wales
5 Gadds Green Oakham Dudley, Rowley Regis, Staffordshire, England

Household members (6 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Alice Allen Head
Married Female 40 1871 - Worcester Oldbury
Mary Ellen Allen Daughter
- Female 13 1898 None Worcester Oldbury
John Allen Son
- Male 12 1899 School Worcester Oldbury
Annie Allen Daughter
- Female 8 1903 - Staff Rowley Regis
Edith Allen Daughter
- Female 6 1905 - Staff Rowley Regis
William Thomas Allen Son
- Male 2 1909 - Staff Rowley Regis

Thank you, posters, for the information, I been able to find most of what you have given me it's just From Marys marriage onwards that is missing and cannot find Anyware, details from her wedding Certificate as follows FOR greyghost

General registry Office App number 3584667/1 date 11/06/1913 Pontypridd, Glamorgan
Edmund Jones aged 22 Collier, Mary Ellen Allen 21 Spinster
Residence 61 High Street Treorchy
father's names, Edmund Jones and John Allen
Certificte no WMXZ 285215 MARY BORN 1898 EDMUND 1897