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Trying again !! James Greenwood 1832 - 1883

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Simon

Simon Report 29 Jan 2012 17:01

After getting nowhere with John Heatley's parents.

I have been concentrating on James Greenwood 1832 today and after investing in a Ancestry subscription but I still can't find James Greenwood on the 1851 Census and still cannot be sure of his parents, find any siblings to back up the details in this thread.
If any does find a challenge the please read through and see if you can help.
Thanks
Simon

Simon

Simon Report 20 Apr 2011 20:04

I love the expression PMSL it is so much more than LOL.

I do find some of these threads fascinating and sometimes very amusing.

Particularly when I am stuck trying to piece together James 1832 siblings and Uncles and Aunts.

I have been having fun with the Heatley's today particularly John Heatley (1811) the surgeon who was from the Preston area but lived in Manchester.
I still can't find a link between John and Captain William Heatley who owned Brindle Hall and built the church John worshipped in Manchester after the Captain died.


JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 20 Apr 2011 19:40

Simon

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/trying_to_find/thread/1014044

(I wish it had ended in 2008; you'll remember Lewella from my Monck/Hill thread)

Simon

Simon Report 12 Apr 2011 19:15

Thanks JC

I know Derker in modern day Oldham

On the 1851 census their are four entries with Dirtcar in them.

Anyway even 1841 the households were in walking distance from each other.
Different parts of modern day Shaw and Crompton

Modern day location

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Fir+Lane,+Oldham&daddr=Derker+St,+Oldham+OL1+3,+UK+to:Clough+Rd,+Shaw,+Oldham+OL2+8QD,+United+Kingdom&geocode=FZ59MQMdSJbf_ylt8R4Wrrl7SDHDbfCGbRahkA%3BFR4VMQMdlATg_ynVDRXvILh7SDFpqA22lrhXEQ%3BFTZ8MQMdrjrg_ymZ637VaLh7SDHI-NqqR4RcQQ&gl=uk&hl=en&mra=iwd&sll=53.578238,-2.115211&sspn=0.112927,0.308647&ie=UTF8&ll=53.561214,-2.104053&spn=0.056486,0.154324&z=13


I wonder how many other Greenwood and Whitehead households there were in 1841 and other than Susannah any relative over 45.

How many of them were living in 1851?

Do any of them a tangible connection to James 1832 other than the family found so far.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 12 Apr 2011 14:23

for info -- I assumed too much it seems -- the households were *in* Clough and Dirtcar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldham

One of the oldest recorded named places of Oldham is Hathershaw, occurring in a deed for 1280 with the spelling Halselinechaw **Clugh**. Existing as a manor in the 15th century, Hathershaw Hall was the home of a Royalist family in the 17th century who lost part of their possessions due to the English Civil War. Waterhead, an upland area in the east of Oldham, traces its roots to a water cornmill over the border in Lees.

Recorded originally as Watergate and Waterhead Milne, it was for a long time a hamlet in the parish of Oldham that formed a significant part of the Oldham Above Town registration sub-district. **Derker** was recorded as a place of residence in 1604 with the name **Dirtcar**. Bound by Higginshaw to the north, Derker is the location of Derker railway station and, said to have terraced residencies "unsuited to modern needs", is currently being redeveloped as part of the Housing Market Renewal Initiative.[

Simon

Simon Report 11 Apr 2011 22:58

Thanks JC

I would love to find an old map.

Their must be one in Oldham Library of Crompton from that time.

According to modern Google Maps Fir Lane and Clough Road are 2 miles apart

Dirtcar seems to have fallen out of use.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 11 Apr 2011 22:31

The Susannah Whitehead household is in District 13 ... on what looks like Dirtcar (road, street)!

The Betty Greenwood household is in District 8 on Fir lane.

The James Greenwood household in District 4 is on Clough.

Simon

Simon Report 11 Apr 2011 22:12

That must be them, thanks

Just his immediate family living with him.

I wonder how far this is from where James was living with his grandma Suzanna.

Another Hannah too,

Good chance these are related to James 1832.

Thanks KC

Simon

Simon Report 11 Apr 2011 22:09

Thanks JC

Firefox 4 is ok for me.

No Crompton or Shaw sub-district those two locations are not the same as the info as I found on IGI

I am hoping for an older relative living with him that might link him to Richard Greenwood and / or James 1832

I am fairly confident that Richard had a brother called James as Richards dad was James and James carried on down to every generation to the present including my eldest son.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 11 Apr 2011 22:05

Aargh, and both were wrong, Prestwich cum Oldham, this one:


Civil parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Crompton
district 4

James Greenwood 35 - cotton weaver (power)
Sarah Greenwood 35 - [?] knitter
Hannah Greenwood 10
Elizabath Greenwood 6
Maria Greenwood 2

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 11 Apr 2011 21:55

Someone, S?

Ha.

I'll be right back with it. ;)


Here I am.

There are two.

[deleted two completely wrong ones resulting from total inattention]

Simon

Simon Report 11 Apr 2011 21:50

James Greenwood 1805

Can some one please look up the 1841 census record for the household.


name: James Greenwood
event: Census
event date: 1841
gender: Male
age: 35
birthplace: Lancashire
record type: Household
registration district: Ashton & Oldham
sub-district: Crompton
civil parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
county: Lancashire

Simon

Simon Report 26 Mar 2011 21:15


I agree, I am more sure than ever that James had siblings William and Hannah with parents Richard and Betty.

Richard probably died a few months before Hannah was born.

Richards Dad was Jane with mother Jane.

If Hannah Greenwoods parents are Richard and Betty then it all linkss together.

Thanks for your help.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 20:55

and you never know ...

Deaths Jun 1838
Greenwood Richard Ashton &c 20 62

Deaths Mar 1839
Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 107
Greenwood Henry Ashton &c 20 3[79]

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 26 Mar 2011 20:44

After I'd posted all that, I went hunting for Tracey's person

GREENWOOD, James Lodger Unmarried M 21 1830 Fustian Dresser Jy'man (born) Crompton Lancashire
Address: 33, Cook Street, Manchester County: Lancashire

and the Lake family he was living with, at Ancestry.

They are not there. Nowhere to be found in 1851 in Manchester at Ancestry.

No wonder I couldn't tie up that theory of mine before!!

It's still just a theory, though. ;)

I'd suggested two Hannah Greenwood births in Ashton reg dist in 1838, to see the parents' names ... but I guess that's the wrong place, really. Crompton is Oldham reg dist, and there's no matching birth registered there.

No ... hang on, the 1841 census says reg dist "Ashton and Oldham"; Oldham reg dist was created in 1848. So it is the right reg dist:

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/ashton%20and%20oldham.html
Abolished : 31.3.1848 (succeeded by Ashton-under-Lyne and Oldham districts)
Crompton Lancashire 1837 to 1848

So "Ashton &c" is actually "Ashton and Oldham", I think, although FreeBMD doesn't note it as such.

Births Jun 1838
Greenwood Hannah Ashton & c 20 136
Births Dec 1838
GREENWOOD Hannah Ashton 20 81

I'd still take a flyer, starting with the first one.

The one with Betty Whitehead Greenwood is the only one like those that I see in 1841:

Betty Greenwood 30
William Greenwood 5
Hannah Greenwood 2
Civil parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Crompton

Simon

Simon Report 26 Mar 2011 10:35

Thanks for your hard work and insight.

You may have just found the missing link.

If James grandad was James then this is a possible marriage

Marriage: 22 Sep 1806 St Mary, Oldham, Lancashire, England
James Greenwood - Weaver of Shaw
Jane Turner - (X), Spinster of Shaw
Witness: Jonathan Jackson; Abraham Stott
Married by Banns by: Thos. Fawcett
Register: Marriages 1802 - 1808, Page 186, Entry 747
Source: LDS Film 1656117

Richard born in 1809 with James born in 1832

Living with grandmother Suzannah in Crompton 1841
Living as a lodger in Manchester 1851
Living in Bilston as Boilermaker in 1861

This all just about links together other than dodgy census records and no birth record of James.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 25 Mar 2011 23:55

Oops, I was hard at work all that time dredging around at pilot.familysearch ... to no avail at all.

Hello! Goodbye -- time to go home for one of the episodes of The Royal we missed earlier in the year!

Back tomorrow ...

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 25 Mar 2011 23:37

As I recall my theory, and after a little reviewing, it was this.

James Greenwood living in 1841 with some Whiteheads.

The connection made when Betty Greenwood found living with the same Whiteheads in 1851; Betty would be the daughter of Susannah Whitehead, sister of Ralph, etc., and that James evidently her son.

(This is not the same Betty Greenwood as the Betty Omroyd married to a Richard Greenwood, as she has independent existence in the censuses.)

Cannot find any marriage to account for Betty Whitehead Greenwood or any baptism to account for that James Greenwood.

Betty also had a son William. You got his marriage certificate and it gave his father as Henry. There are a couple of possible matching baptism records, in Oldham.

She also had a daughter Hannah, born abt 1839. You did not get the possible birth certificates to see what they said for parents' names. Mistake, if that's right, I think.

The censuses for these various people are summarized in a post of mine about midway on page 4, 5th Sep 2008.


I've been poking about at pilot.familysearch and not finding much of anything to confirm or deny my theory. ;)


One interesting tidbit, given the tendency of men to name their first son after their father:

Name: Richard Greenwood
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Oct 1809
> Baptism/Christening Place: Shaw Chapel, Oldham, Lancashire, England
> Father's Name: James Greenwood
Mother's Name: Jane
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04743-2 **
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1545708
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

** again submitted?

I wonder whether the lancs opc site would have anything on these various records.


There's still absolutely no reason for me to like those people, I just do. ;)



I note the person Tracey has added above, in 1851:

GREENWOOD, James Lodger Unmarried M 21 1830 Fustian Dresser Jy'man (born) Crompton Lancashire
Address: 33, Cook Street, Manchester County: Lancashire


and I add:

William Greenwood son of Betty Whitehead Greenwood was a fustian cutter on his marriage certificate and the family was from Crompton.


1841 census (see back on page 4)

Betty Greenwood 30 - washerwoman
Hannah Greenwood 2
William Greenwood 5
Mary Whitehead 35 - cotton weaver
James Whitehead 40 - "
John Whitehead 40 - "
Civil Parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
> Sub-registration district: Crompton


1851 census (see back on page 4):

Betty Greenwood 42 - Washerwoman
> William Greenwood 15 - Cotton Fustian Cutter
(daughter Hannah is elsewhere)
> Civil Parish: Crompton
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Royton


1861 census (see back to page 3)

Name: William Greenwood
> Fustian Cutter (employing 10)
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah
Where born: Oldham, Lancashire, England
> Civil Parish: Crompton


So Tracey's one James in 1851 is my James from 1841, I'd think quite certainly.

Simon

Simon Report 25 Mar 2011 22:57

KB how are you?

I have spent a lot of time on this in the last year.

I even went to Manchester and looked at the 'lost' Manchester 1851 census and found no James Greenwoods of the correct age.

JaneyCanuck

JaneyCanuck Report 25 Mar 2011 22:35

It's almost anniversary time. ;)

Friday evening, big week of work, and the government fell here a few hours ago!

I might just revisit James this weekend for a lark ...