Find Ancestors

Yes feralcat the above people were elizabeth ethel roberts aunt and uncle who brought her up and kathryn b your census 1901 is her with them and i have now def ruled out all annie mcdougall nee brothers as eers father except thomas h roberts and can only find 2 candidates for mother died 1899 1stquarter margaret jane roberts age 25 liverpool or elizabeth ann roberts conway age 44 [findmypast]and i know she was irish from biography of family but the author only left me surnames mcdougall and roberts and eer.s cousins edward annie amy and edith[ as 1901 census]and"The criccieth welsh aunts"oh and the irish aunt katie whom the now deceased author[eer.s daughter] met in london during the 2nd world war.still cant do tidy writing sorry folks but hope this helps if not will wait til i get eer.sbirth cert.thanks vivienne.

Vivienne -- the Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, who was 17 in 1871 would have been born 1853-54 -- a little old to be the parent of a child born in 1899?

Is he this one?

Name: Thomas Hughes Roberts
Year of Registration: 1853
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: St Asaph
County: Denbighshire, Flintshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 326


If so, it looks like this marriage I copied above is his:

Marriages Dec 1874
BRADSHAW Elizabeth Helen W.Derby 8b 601
Cook John W. Derby 8b 601
LEWIS Mary Jane W. Derby 8b 601
Roberts Thomas Hughes W. Derby 8b 601

and they would be the people referred to by feralcat (I get what you were saying now, I think!):

"1881 Census
Thomas H Roberts was living with his wife Elizabeth at 22 Dalkeith Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Occupation, Joiner. Elizabeth was born in Denbighshire, Wales c1855."


... except that one says born in Liverpool -- which is what Thomas H, son of Evan, says in 1871.

Maybe this is the Thomas Hughes Roberts born in 1853:


Name: Thomas H. Roberts
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliz. Helen
Gender: Male
Where born: Wales

Civil Parish: Great Crosby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 40 Murat St
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: General Clerk In Wine & Spirit Trade

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Crosby
ED, institution, or vessel: 3

John H. Barker 21
Chas. E. Linacre 19
Eliz. Helen Roberts 29
Herbert G. Roberts 4
Thomas H. Roberts 27



I guess you know that the household with Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, in 1871 is yours, because of the Ann Roberts Mcdougall connection ...


In any event, given how old he was, why would he not have been married loooong before 1899?

And I *still* don't know the answer to my very first question:

I can't find any Thomas Roberts marriage, last quarter, West Derby. Where did you get the info?


And yes, Vivienne, you can do tidy writing. All you do is hit the "enter" key twice when you get to the end of a thought. So your post would look like this, and would actually be comprehensible:

-------------------------------------------

Yes feralcat the above people were elizabeth ethel roberts aunt and uncle who brought her up

and kathryn b your census 1901 is her with them

and i have now def ruled out all annie mcdougall nee brothers as eers father except thomas h roberts

and can only find 2 candidates for mother died 1899 1stquarter

margaret jane roberts age 25 liverpool

or elizabeth ann roberts conway age 44 [findmypast]

and i know she was irish from biography of family but the author only left me surnames mcdougall and roberts

and eer.s cousins edward annie amy and edith[ as 1901 census]

and"The criccieth welsh aunts"

oh and the irish aunt katie whom the now deceased author[eer.s daughter] met in london during the 2nd world war.

still cant do tidy writing sorry folks but hope this helps if not will wait til i get eer.sbirth cert.

thanks vivienne.

----------------------------------------------

So if Elizabeth Ann Roberts was 44 when she died, she looks like a candidate to be the wife of Thomas H Roberts who would have been about 45 in 1899. But they could have married anytime ...

Do you actually know where your Thomas H Roberts was in 1891?

I think this might be him:


Name: Thomas H Y Roberts (Hy, =Henry, obviously)
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth A
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Occupation: Carpenter <<<

Name: Elizabeth A Roberts
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas H Y
Gender: Female
Where born: Ibstone, Oxfordshire, England (??)

Civil Parish: Greenwich
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich East
ED, institution, or vessel: 17

Elizabeth A Roberts 34
Elizabeth A Roberts 7
Henry E Roberts 8
Herbert C Roberts 4
Thomas H Y Roberts 35
Thomas W Roberts 6
Walter F Roberts 2


The kids were all born after 1881, in Plumstead/Greenwich.

And they're all alive and well in 1901:

Elizth A Roberts 19
Elizth C Roberts 43
Henry E Roberts 18
Herbert C Roberts 14
Thomas H Roberts 43
Thomas W Roberts 16
Walter F Roberts 11


But you know, I really do think that is probably the Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, in the 1871 household.

And so I think that your theory that the Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan, in the 1871 household, is the father of your EER is probably wrong.


If I'm right, this would likely be the birth of Thomas H Roberts, son of Evan:

Name: Thomas Henry Roberts
Year of Registration: 1853
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Liverpool (1837-1934)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: (have to check image for page number)


The discrepancy between the Thomas H in 1881 and the Thomas H in 1891 and 1901 is that, while both have wife Elizabeth, the 1881 Elizabeth was born c1855 in Denbyshire and the 1891/1901 Elizabeth was born c1857/8 in Oxfordshire. They could actually be two different people, two marriages.


Spend the dough. Get EER's birth certificate. We can take up a collection!

Eer was an only child

Thomas h was listed as joiner 1871 census

but in my bography he is described as..ships carpenter..so maybe he was on the high seas and married later when returned to dry land.

Have asked santa for eers cert, he says its in the post but any donations gratefully recieved as has all your input. thank you..vivienne

ps hope that was better!

elizabeth ethel roberts 16 03 1899 -- registered 2nd quarter:

Name: Elizabeth Ethel Roberts
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 507


Might her mother's death not also have been registered 2nd quarter?

Name: Ellen Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 51
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 256

Name: Jane Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 26
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 244

Name: Mary Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 23
District: West Derby
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 218


If you think your EER could be the one registered (late) in Conway, then

Name: Elizabeth Ann Roberts
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 44
District: Conway (To 1937)
County: Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 380

could be the right one -- she matches up with the 1881 wife of Thomas H in Liverpool, age-wise.


And you know, both those Elizabeths -- 1881 and 1891/1901, if they're different -- could have been wives of the same Thomas H, and still living -- he might simply have run off to London, leaving the first one behind, and hooked up with the second one.

Which would mean that the first one might be the mother of EER, but Thomas H would not have been her father.


She might have been this one in 1891, for example:


Name: Elizabeth Roberts
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Wife >>> no husband present
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: Howard Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 3

David Roberts 6
Edward Roberts 10
Elizabeth Roberts 38
Elizabeth Roberts 16
James Roberts 14
Mary Roberts 12
Richard Roberts 3/12
Robert Roberts 19 -- born just after 1881 census?


Those kids are split up in 1901:


Name: David Roberts
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Albans
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Household schedule number: 340

Edward Roberts 20
Alice Roberts 20 - wife
David Roberts 14


Name: Richard Roberts
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby, Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 79

Robert Roberts 44 - visitor - probably father of children ... hmm ...
Bertha Williams 23
Elizabeth Williams 6 months
Richard Roberts 11
John Williams 24
John Williams 2


for example. Kinda like ... if their mother had died.


Do you suppose there's any chance that Elizabeth's *name* was Ireland, and not that she was *from* Ireland???


Marriages Dec 1879
Emmes Susan West Derby 8b 685
Ireland Elizabeth W. Derby 8b 685
Roberts Robert West Derby 8b 685
Sullivan Thomas W. Derby 8b 685


In 1881:


Name: Robert Roberts
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 6 Liscard Buildings
Condition as to marriage: Married <<<
Occupation: Boiler Maker

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 34

Ann Cunnah 60
Samuel Grimshaw 29
George Kindle 33
Richard Rankin 45
Sarah H. Riley 16
Robert Roberts 35


The Robert Roberts in 1901 is an engineer, marine ... but oh crap, he's recorded as married.


And heck, I wonder whether your EER's mother really died, or everybody just said she did ...

For one thing, she could just have been the child of an unmarried daughter or granddaughter of Evan Roberts.

There you go! You can do it. ;)

Joiner = carpenter. Same thing.

Farmdale Road, Greenwich, where Thomas Hy Roberts was living in 1891 -- the one I was looking at up there -- is within a few blocks of the docks. They were still there in 1901, and in 1901 he's actually called "carpenter & joiner".

I'm convinced to a virtual certainty that he's Thomas H, son of Evan!!

Hi Viv,

That's as plain as day! ;-)

Nice to see you've risen above the sarcasm and vitriol displayed in this thread.

Let's know how you get on with the Certificates when you receive them.

Cheers, feralcat

Well hello there, feralcat.

You might want to learn to read for comprehension a little better.

"Nice to see you've risen above the sarcasm and vitriol displayed in this thread."

What's been "displayed" in this thread is frustration -- on the part of someone doing her damnedest to help out the person with the puzzle. You were talking about me, right?

If you want to comment on a participant in a discussion rather than contribute to the discussion, maybe you could start your own thread.

And how perhaps I eat my virtual certainty; in 1881:


Name: Thomas H. Roberts
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William G.
Mother's Name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Ship Joiner <<<<

Name: William G. Roberts
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Sheerness, Kent, England
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Ship Joiner & Modeler (Bidr)

Street address: 3 Cambridge Ter
Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Woolwich Dockyard
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

William T. Jolly 48
Catherine Roberts 58
Thomas H. Roberts 23
William G. Roberts 60


Funny thing that there were two Thomas H Roberts-s born in Liverpool in the 1850s who were both ship's carpenters ... if there were ... ;)

;-)

Catherine in that 1881 household wasn't the mother of that Thomas Henry Roberts:


Name: Thomas Henry Roberts
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William George
Mother's Name: Henrietta
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Barking
Ecclesiastical parish: St Margaret
Town: Barking
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Registration district: Romford
Sub-registration district: Barking Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 5

Samuel Cock 18
Alice Charlotte Roberts 7
Arthur George Roberts 9
Henrietta Roberts 42
John James Roberts 17
Thomas Henry Roberts 13
William George Roberts 51
William Timothy Roberts 20


And every single other one of those Roberts-s was born in Kent.


The household in 1871 in Gravesend:


Amelia M Roberts 9
Emma A Roberts 18
Henrietta Roberts 33
Henrietta E Roberts 12
John Jas Roberts 7
Susette E Roberts 4
Thos H Roberts 3
William G Roberts 41
William T Roberts 10


and even the 4-yr-old was born in Kent.


Thomas Henry Roberts 1857 Oct-Nov-Dec West Derby Lancashire
Thomas Henry Roberts 1858 Apr-May-Jun West Derby Lancashire

Feralcat:

http://genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=982749

about the 7th post.

S/he who speaks from ignorance makes fool of self. Now really, dear, if you want to continue this, I'm sure it would fit well on the chat board.

Or you could just read:

http://genesreunited.co.uk/genesreunited.asp?wci=grstatic&type=guidelines

Me thinks back to the drawing board when postie has delivered the info needed but i do think thomas h may have taken to the sea [again] as after eers mother died he disappeared after depositing eer with his sister and never saw her again!back when i get the all important paper.

on this one anyway.!!!

ta muchley. vivienne ps.. i love sarcasm it shapens the wits.

Could I have something here? (Finally??? !!)


1891:


Name: Thomas H Roberts
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Son-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Llansaintffraid
Town: Llansantffraid Glyn Conway
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales

Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Joiner <<<

Registration district: Conway <<<
Sub-registration district: Creuddyn
ED, institution, or vessel: 2


Ancestry seems to have invented a bunch of people and added them to the household -- the household actually consists only of:

Evan Roberts
-- widower -- 85, born Caernarvon
his daughter Mary Roberts
-- single -- 27, born Denbighshire, "at home with her father"
his son-in-law Thomas H Roberts
-- married -- 37, born Liverpool


which doesn't make a lot of sense. But the name, DOB, occupation and father's name match the 1871 Thomas H.

(I see what Ancestry has done -- its usual trick of ignoring people's plainly written surnames, because it failed to read what appears to be Welsh for "head" in the next household, so has created a bunch of Roberts-s who are really named Hughes. And then included a Jones "wife" whose husband wasn't present that night and ignored her name too ... lordy ...)

irish auntie katie is ..catherine jennings.. in ww2 .when vi bombs are dropping on london [soho where she lived then and she worshipped at farm st church so must have died after war?]

she is eers mothers sister

only given the name today

her maiden name gives us eers mum ...come on folks make my christmas day i have searched since 10 am this morn . got no where.viv....still parky here..

Well that's ... heh heh ... a bombshell.

EER's mother was Elizabeth Jennings, you say?


Any chance she went by Mary?


Marriages Dec 1897
Cornett Sarah Jane Liverpool 8b 60
Galvin William Liverpool 8b 60
Jennings Mary Liverpool 8b 60
Roberts Thomas Liverpool 8b 60


Or they were in Tamworth district for some reason?


Marriages Dec 1880
JENNINGS Elizabeth Tamworth 6b 613
ROBERTS Thomas Tamworth 6b 613


Or - of course - they weren't married?

Had Elizabeth been married before??


Marriages Jun 1898
Bromsgrove John Toxteth Park 8b 400
Jones Mary Elizabeth Toxteth Park 8b 400
* Roberts Thomas Toxteth Park 8b 400
* Rycroft Elizabeth Toxteth Park 8b 400


Marriages Dec 1880
Clark Ann Hunslet 9b 423
* JENNINGS Thomas Hunslet 9b 423
LAMBERT Thomas Hunslet 9b 423
* Rycroft Jane Elizabeth Hunslet 9b 423


One theory ...

But are you not going to order the @$(*&@%^ birth certificate for EER?

I'm seriously not going to play much more unless you do.

No no no
irish auntie

catherine jennings was eers mothers sister ,..
jennings was prob the the aunts married name...

viv

Nope. Looks like Elizabeth Rycroft Jennings was 44 in the 1891 census.