Genealogy Chat

Just read Marian's last post yesterday at 21.12 and at first I thought she was meaning had we ever found Annie Hadley with a brother - and of course we did, Thomas. But her uncle actually said that Annie Hadley and Jennie Hall had a brother - making them sisters. And therefore quite likely that Jennie Hall had been born and brought up in the Midlands, not Wales, and even more possible that she was Jessie Tedstone's mother.

Just got Thomas Tedstone's birth cert today. There is no father entered on it and mother is Martha Tedstone.

So it is Martha who was born a Davies then?

Does that add up to the person they said wasn't a blood relative.

Maryb

Back to 1881 census.

Wm Teadstone head 1821 Bromfield Shrops. occ highway lab road.
Eliza wife 1822 Shrewsbury
Sarah dau 1856 Hopesay.
Robt.Teadstone nephew 1863 Hopesay occ Serv Out of Place Ag
Thos Teadstone nephew 1867 Hopesay occ brickmakers labourer.

address Perry Gutter Hopesay

Marian...could you please put all the birth cert. details up please....?

Hoping address may be Perry Gutter, Hopesay, as thats where all the other Tedstones from that family seemed to be around that time.

Nicky

So Robert and Thomas were brothers then....the tree owner on ancestry seemed to know that Martha was Roberts mother.....maybe she has his birth cert.?


Nicky

All the birth cert says as far as residence is concerned is Clunginford.

Margaret, very kindly found the following information for me. Jane Hall died Dec 1952 at Belgrave Road, Colne, Lancs aged 77. Widow of Robert Hall a colliery hewer, the death notified by H. Hall son, of 144 Ashworth Street, Baxenden, Accrington, Lancs.

Just to add that Marian's cousin Steve has told me that Margaret Hall/Hope/Blakeman's family did indeed live at Belgrave Road, Colne in 1952.

And she had a son Henry, who is likely to be the person notifying the death, and he lived in Accrington, which is where her normal residence was.

To me there is no doubt that this is Jennie Hall.

I am waiting for Colne Cemeteries to tell me she is buried with daughter Margaret who died in 1938 at Colne, but that doesn't really matter if she is not. But she will be, I think.

SO, PHEW. Jennie Hall nee Bradford dies as Jane Hall. The son Henry might have guessed at her name, or might have known she was really Jane.

Marian, do we know who Henry Hall married, and who his children were - might they have known the truth as well?

Do we think that this Jane (Jennie) Hall, nee Bradford, is the Jane Tedstone nee Bradford who is the mother of Jessie Tedstone on the birth certificate in 1892? I do.

And then do we think that Jane Bradford is the Mary Jane Bradford who married Thomas Tedstone, and was a child of the John/Letitia Bradford family in 1871 and 1881. I do.

I will have to leave Thomas Tedstone/Martha till tomorrow. Not got all that in my mind yet.

Margaret

But then I wonder why there was so much secrecy. So far we are told that Jessie was born to Jane Tedstone nee Bradford, and was brought up by Jane's sister. No big deal really. For some reason Jane needs to pretend she was never married when she met Robert Hall. So I wonder if she felt responsible for Thomas's death/injuries. Supposition. Ignore me.

I have just been thinking about Jennie Hall. I wonder if she was really called Janey and memories have changed it to Jennie.. That would explain her name Jane

Quinsgran you are likely right,.

Just to say that Jane Hayball, the owner of he Ancestry tree has replied to me. She has Thomas as the son of Martha Tedstone, illegitimate. She also thinks that Robert is his brother, which doesn't tie in with the other tree (forgotten what it was). But we think that Martha Tedstone was Martha Davis. I have put that to her.

Margaret

Has anyone found the death of Thomas Tedstone,as I can't seem to find it.
Or was that just another tale and the simple fact Mary Jane bradford ran away and commited bigamy.

Maryb

So many, ifs and buts and maybes.........don`t think Marian is ever going to have a clear picture of what really happened with this family.

Margaret, your summing up is plausable, and I too like Quinsgran had wondered about Jane becoming Janey then morphing in to Jennie.......

Think Marian trying to trace family of Henry Hall is a good idea.....

As for Thomas Tedstone who was Jessies father, we are still none the wiser of his whereabouts after the 1881 census, except for the marriage to Mary Jane Hall, and birth of Jessie a short while after. Is he the T. Tedstone in a Lunatic Asylum in Birmingham in 1891? ..........I think theres a good chance thats him, age is slightly out but we can ignore that, had he had some sort of breakdown prior to the marriage? was Mary Jane/Jane/Jennie grief stricken by his death ? or did he just leave her?....... but why was Jessie left with her horrible Aunt Annie Hadley until at least 1911 if Jane/Jennie was around?, and why did Jane/Jennies place of birth change to Wales? if she was Mary Jane Bradford from Staffordshire?

Oh we could go round and round in circles on this one....so many unanswered questions, and information, and memories passed down through families is often so unreliable......

Nicky

EDIT... Be intresting to hear what the Ancestry tree owner thinks about Martha Tedstone/Davies....I`m suprised she hadn`t already made the connection as it is quite clear on the 1841 census....though it did cross my mind the other day, that maybe Charlotte was Martha`s mother and Thomas Davies the father but born before they actually married, so they listed her as Davies on the census, its possible as we still don`t know when Charlotte`s first husband John died..


Nicky

Marian's cousin is going to have another try at questionning her father, but he is currently ill, and she says his memory is not reliable, so I have actually told her not to press him on it at all. It is more important that he recovers from his lllness.

I doubt that the T Tedstone in the Asylum in 1891 is Thomas. Maybe Mary Jane worked there, and he got her pregnant, and the authorities insisted that they married, but surely they wouldn't then have had two genuine family members, the Darwoods, as witnesses. And the T Tedstone in the Asylum was a dog handler. Not a groom or a glass cutter.

But will we ever know?

Marian now has the birth cert of Thomas Tedstone, giving mother only as Martha Tedstone. But we think she was really Martha Davis. I don't think that knowledge will help us. Whoever she was, she took the name Tedstone.

No, no death of Thomas Tedstone at an appropriate time.

Drat!

The contact on Ancestry knows nothing about a policeman.

I imagine she will come back to me shortly, now that I have posed some questions to her.

Keep in touch.

I think we have all done a damn good team effort here. Sort of like an Endurance Test, would you say?

Regards to all

Margaret

Thank you all for everything you have done to help me, for all the hours you have spent looking, all the support you have given me throughout. As Margaret said it was like a quest, but you didn't give up on me even though at times it must have driven you mad. Thank you again. Marian

Yes definetly an Edurance test....... we`ve all put in a lot of time on this, but i`ve enjoyed the challenge....it always amazes me that I can become as intrested in other peoples family`s as I am my own.


Hope Marions Uncle is ok...as you say his health is far more important than anything else.

Good point about the Darwoods unlikely to being witness`s if Thomas was in an Asylum......I have no idea about procedure then...did people get "better" and get released?

Also wondered if Thomas had been mentally ill, would he have ended up on the streets if his marriage broke up? , if he died that way then he`d probably be in a Paupers Grave unnamed.....a sort of Jane Doe.... might explain why we can`t find a likely death for him.

When I get time I think i`ll take all the Thomas Tedstones from 1881 and try and trace them through to their deaths......may take a bit of time, but if we have one unaccounted for he may be our man.

Nicky

.

The contact on Ancestry has got the birth cert of Robert b 1863, his mother is Martha Tedstone, unmarried, so looks like he is the brother of Thomas. I can't remember why we thought he was a cousin of Thomas.

I will ask her about his marriage cert, and what he says his father's occupation is. She seems keen to share stuff.

It is likely that Charlotte b 1875 in Dukinfield is also the illegitimate daughter of Martha Tedstone/Davies, but then she could be the daughter of William Jones cos we haven't traced him back (and it will probably be difficult) - now there's a challenge!

The Endurance Test goes on.

I do know that Marian is grateful for our work. But also her cousins Stephen and Carolyn are too. Nice to help a whole family.

I am still going through all this, not got there yet.

So Martha Tedstone b 1835, you think is really Martha Davis. Why do you think that?

Is it because In 1841 she is listed as Davis, with Thomas Davis, Charlotte Davis formerly Tedstone (parents) and Tedstones William 20, John 15 and Charlotte 6. Maybe Thomas Davis thought she was his child, but she was really the last child of John Tedstone, conceived before he died. Given the 20-year age difference between Charlotte and Thomas, perhaps she passed the child off as his in order to secure a marriage. But after he died in the 1840s, there was no need to pretend.

I'd guess she is John Tedstone's daughter. Who knows.

Whose child is Charlotte Tedstone? Charlotte b 1817 EDIT married in 1817 - can't have two children aged 6 in 1841 by two different fellas. So Martha could be Thomas Davis's daughter. But what happens to Charlotte Tedstone b 1835 after 1841? Unless she becomes 24 by 1851. There is no death for her.

Oh, it's hard work!

Now why did people think that Robert Tedstone 1863 and Thomas Tedstone 1867 were not brothers? Maybe it was me!

I'll do that summary, if people have not yet given up.

Margaret

Its alright Margaret your not going mad....

.I think we were just keeping an open mind on wether Thomas b1867 and Robert b1863 were brothers or cousins because they are with their uncle in 1871 and 1881 listed as Nephews, which meant they could have been brothers ,but also could have been cousins, if the tree owner on Ancestry has Roberts births cert. at least thats confirmation that they are in fact brothers, though wether they had the same father??...........well that`d be another story.

I.

I thought Martha was Thomas Davies daughter because:

a).....shes listed as Martha Davies age 6 in 1841 and

b)......Charlotte didn`t marry Thomas until 1836......... but she could have been Johns child because we don`t have a death for him.

The 4 baptisms from the IGI.....Charlotte b 1835 in 1841 and 1827 in 1851 {think its same person} could have been Baptised at a different church whose records aren`t available on the IGI

. ROBERT GEORGE TEDSTONE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 JUN 1826 Bromfield, Shropshire, England

2. JOHN TEDSTONE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 22 AUG 1824 Bromfield, Shropshire, England

3. ELIZABETH TEDSTONE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 JUN 1822 Bromfield, Shropshire, England

4. WILLIAM TEDSTONE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 08 OCT 1820 Bromfield, Shropshire, England





Nicky