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I've got stuck - anyone got any suggestions?

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Alison

Alison Report 10 Sep 2012 21:06

Hello! I think I've been making reasonably good progress on my family tree for a newbie at least. But I've got stuck up one line. My grandmother's father died when she was 3 so we have very little information to go on, which doesn't help either! I have ascertained that her father was Ernest Riley b1881 in West Ham, Essex, died 1911 shortly after the census. Ernest's parents were John Riley born Worksop/Warsop, Nottinghamshire approx 1846-7 (died in West Ham in last q of 1901 aged 56) and Mary (maiden name unknown) who was from East London. There are lots of John Riley's marrying various Mary's - I wonder if it is Mary Samwell though purely on the basis that this is the last marriage in the right area before the birth of the oldest Riley son John...but this seems to have been before the 1871 census yet I can't find a match on the 1871 census, so I'm not sure.

John was an engine driver/fitter - and son Ernest (and the other sons) were also all engine drivers/fitters - Ernest was apparently killed in a work accident, I am currently waiting for his death certificate to arrive to find out more. I may be wrong, but this makes me suspect that John's father too would possibly have been an engine driver, and perhaps was why they ended up moving from Notts to London.

All speculation - and this is the problem, the trail has gone cold at John. There are just too many John Riley's to narrow it down, and I'm unfamiliar with the Notts area which adds to my lack of confidence on this. The earliest I can find for 'my' John Riley is the 1881 census, I can't find him on the 1871 census and I don't know when he moved from Notts (or wherever they moved around to!) and when he finally arrived in London.

www.confused.com - if anyone has any bright ideas on how I can re-ignite this trail, I would be very grateful! Many thanks if you've even got this far :-D

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 21:24

For Ref

1891 Census Household Record
Household Information
Address 8, Thornham Grove
Parish West Ham
District West Ham, Stratford
Administrative County Essex
Householder 1
Name John Riley
Age 44
Estimated Year of Birth 1847
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Railway Engine Driver
Birth Place Worksop
Birth County Nottinghamshire
Householder 2
Name Mary Riley
Age 42
Estimated Year of Birth 1849
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation
Birth Place Westham
Birth County Essex
Householder 3
Name John Wm Riley
Age 19
Estimated Year of Birth 1872
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Railway Engine Cleaner
Birth Place Stratford
Birth County Essex
Householder 4
Name Samuel Riley
Age 16
Estimated Year of Birth 1875
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Railway Engine Cleaner
Birth Place Stratford
Birth County Essex
Householder 5
Name Simon Riley
Age 14
Estimated Year of Birth 1877
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Merchants Clerk
Birth Place Stratford
Birth County Essex
Householder 6
Name Alfred Riley
Age 12
Estimated Year of Birth 1879
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Stratford
Birth County Essex
Householder 7
Name Ernest Riley
Age 10
Estimated Year of Birth 1881
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Scholar
Birth Place Stratford
Birth County Essex
Householder 8
Name Ada L Riley
Age 5
Estimated Year of Birth 1886
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Occupation Scholar
Birth Place Doncaster
Birth County Yorkshire
Householder 9
Name Mary B Riley
Age 2
Estimated Year of Birth 1889
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Stratford
Birth County Essex

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 21:27

Have you got Ernest's birth cert as that should show his mother's maiden name?

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 21:29


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Mar 1881 (>99%)
RILEY Ernest W. Ham 4a 24

Alison

Alison Report 10 Sep 2012 21:33

Thanks JustDinosaurJill, yes I am currently waiting for Ernest's death certificate to come through, I am 95% sure I know which is the right Ernest to order the birth certificate but I just wanted to double check the location/year/quarter from his death certificate to triangulate against the census before I go ordering it.

Yes hopefully the mother's maiden name will give me another trail, but regardless of that I still can't find that pesky father John any earlier than the 1881 census either, so any help on how I could go about finding more about dad John would be very helpful - looks like in 1891 and 1901 they lived right on the edge of the site which is now an Olympic stadium!

Kind regards,
Alison :-D

Alison

Alison Report 10 Sep 2012 21:38

(posted my previous reply before I'd seen your suggested birth certificate!)

Haha yes that is indeed the one I've got earmarked to get!

Did they always have mother's maiden name on birth certificates? I know on findmypast they only show from 1911 onwards - is this just what the search engine shows rather than what the birth certificate itself has?

Thanks for the help :-D

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 21:44

Don't get confused.com between the entries on the birth certs themselves and what you can see in the indexes on FreeBMD or other websites.

After September 1911 the mother's maiden name is shown in the indexes. As far as I know it has always been included on actual birth certs.

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 21:56

Had you spotted that Ada was born in Doncaster? Obviously another railway city.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1885 (>99%)
Riley Ada Louisa Doncaster 9c 729

So if there is any doubt about Ernest's birth, you could try for her birth cert.

With luck if you get Mary's maiden name, we can find the marriage and maybe trace more about John from there.

Looks like Mary was dead by 1901 as John shown as a widower.

1901 Census Household Record

Household information
Address 8 Thornham Grove
Civil Parish West Ham
Rural District
Town or Village or Hamlet
Ecclesiastical Parish St Pauls
Parliamentary Borough or Division North Division Of West Ham Borough
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District West Ham County Borough
Administrative County Borough Of West Ham
Householder 1
Name Ada Riley
Relation to Head of Family Daughter
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 15
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Yorks Doncaster
Language
Infirmity
Householder 2
Name Alfred Riley
Relation to Head of Family Son
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 22
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Railway Engine Fitter
Employment Status
Where Born Essex Stratford
Language
Infirmity
Householder 3
Name Ernest Riley
Relation to Head of Family Son
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 20
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Engineer Apprentice
Employment Status
Where Born Essex Stratford
Language
Infirmity
Householder 4
Name John Riley
Relation to Head of Family Head
Condition as to Marriage Widower
Age Last Birthday 54
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Railway Engine Driver
Employment Status
Where Born Notts Warsop
Language
Infirmity
Householder 5
Name May Riley
Relation to Head of Family Daughter
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 12
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Essex Stratford
Language
Infirmity
Householder 6
Name Martha Sutcliffe
Relation to Head of Family House Keeper
Condition as to Marriage Single
Age Last Birthday 59
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Essex West Ham
Language
Infirmity

Alison

Alison Report 10 Sep 2012 22:01

Yes I thought that was a bit strange and wondered why that might be! It seemed a bit odd that all the others were born in London yet she was randomly in Doncaster! Mary died in about 1895 I seem to recall, and I think John died later in 1901 shortly after that census. All very interesting, more questions than answers all the time!

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 22:09

I found Simon's birth too back in Essex.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Mar 1877 (>99%)
Riley Simon West Ham 4a 21

I looked on FamilySearch for him and Ada and no baptisms show up. Perhaps that is two areas where records have not been transcribed from but I suspect that the children were just not baptised. Not quite sure what that meant, if anything, so long ago. Me thinks it will have to be the birth cert with Mary's maiden name on it for her side. With luck and a marriage maybe showing up on FamilySearch or if not the marriage cert itself, John's father will be on it.

Alison

Alison Report 10 Sep 2012 22:17

Thanks for your help! It sounds as if that might be the only avenue open to me at the moment, so it's got to be worth a go. I'm glad as a newbie I don't seem to be missing anything obvious as well :-D I will wait until Ernest's death certificate arrives before I order his birth certificate, need to spread these things out across months too :-)

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 22:24

Hi Alison,

I think I have found him in the 1871 living at Queen Street Hudsons Buildings, West Ham. He is a lodger in the household of Amelia Collins? Will try to find her census entry as his is a single entry with no other residents shown. Not sure why it was transcribed that way. I'm looking at the original and he is a locomotive stoker.

Added: The transcription on GR doesn't show the occupation. Again not sure why but the original is quite clear.

1871 Census Record

Personal Information
Name John Riley
Age 24
Estimated Year of Birth 1847
Relationship to Head of Household Lodger
Occupation
Address Queen Street Hudsons Buildings
District West Ham, Stratford
Parish West Ham
Administrative County Essex
Birth Place Nottinghamshire
Birth County Nottinghamshire
Reference Information
Folio 25
Page 46
Piece 1626

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 22:28

Here you go

1871 Census Household Record

Household Information
Address Queen Street Hudsons Buildings
Parish West Ham
District West Ham, Stratford
Administrative County Essex
Householder 1
Name Amelia Collins
Age 48
Estimated Year of Birth 1823
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation
Birth Place Surrey
Birth County Surrey
Householder 2
Name John Collins
Age 15
Estimated Year of Birth 1856
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Essex
Birth County Essex
Householder 3
Name John Hart
Age 18
Estimated Year of Birth 1853
Relationship to Head of Household Visitor
Occupation
Birth Place Norfolk
Birth County Norfolk
Householder 4
Name Albert Hart
Age 4
Estimated Year of Birth 1867
Relationship to Head of Household Visitor
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Norfolk
Birth County Norfolk

Plus another lodger. On the original he is a locomotive driver but again the transcribed info shows nothing.


1871 Census Household Record

Household Information
AddressQueen Street Hudsons Buildings
ParishWest Ham
DistrictWest Ham, Stratford
Administrative CountyEssex
Householder 1
NameEdmund Spencer
Age22
Estimated Year of Birth1849
Relationship to Head of HouseholdLodger
Occupation
Birth PlaceNorfolk
Birth CountyNorfolk

Oh and Amelia is shown as a Lodging House Keeper

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 22:57

Possible choices on the 1851.

Surname Forenames Born in Place of birth Location in 1851 Transcription Image
Riley John 1846 Gringley East Retford, Gringley View
Riley John 1847 Ilkeston Basford, Ilkeston View
Riley John 1847 Ilkeston Basford, Ilkeston View
Riley John 1846 Radford, Radford View
Riley John W 1847 Stapleford Shardlow, Stapleford View

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 10 Sep 2012 23:10

Think this might be John William's birth so it took place sometime just before the end of June up to just before the end of September.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1872 (>99%)
Riley John William W. Ham 4a 2

I found this marriage in West Ham. It's a possible for your Mary.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1872 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alabaster Virtue West W.Ham 4a 10
HAINES John Joseph W. Ham 4a 10
Mars Mary W. Ham 4a 10
Riley John W Ham 4a 10

I found Virtue Haines in the 1881 so a John Riley did marry Mary Mars

Dame*Shelly*(

Dame*Shelly*("\(*o*)/") Report 11 Sep 2012 12:42

Alison
you say john riley died last Q 1901
was just woundering if this is him

Burial Register summary
last name
RILEY
first names
JOHN
Burial date
15 Nov 1901
Authority
London Borough of Newham
Location
West Ham Cemetery (Newham)

Grave details and 4 other burials (this could be a family grave and may still have a head stone)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
there is also 2 mary's
1 mary and 1 mary ann

Burial Register summary
last name
RILEY
first names
MARY
Burial date
11 Jul 1929
Authority
London Borough of Newham
Location
West Ham Cemetery (Newham)

Grave details and 10 other burials (this i would say is a common grave and there for no head stone)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burial Register summary
last name
RILEY
first names
MARY ANN
Burial date
24 Jun 1907
Authority
London Borough of Newham
Location
West Ham Cemetery (Newham)

Grave details and 20 other burials (this i would say is common crave and dont think there would be a deah stone)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this info i got from

www.deceasedonline.com

now my point of posting this is that you have to pay to see more info and i dont have creit for this. But i am willing to take a trip in the cemetery for you if needed
but i would need sec/plot and grave number for john riley

best of luck shelly xxx

or you could phone the cemetery and ask them for the info
if intrested i think i have the phone number for west ham cemetery xxx

Chris Ho :)

Chris Ho :) Report 11 Sep 2012 15:03

1871 (possible for Mary)
MARS: Mary Lodger F 22 1849 Essex (Plaistow)
Piece: 1624
Folio: 161
Page: 23
Registration District: West Ham
Civil Parish: West Ham
Municipal Borough:
Address: Waddington Street, West Ham
County: Essex


1911 (sister of Ernest?)
RILEY, Bertha May Inmate Single F 22 1889 Being Trained In Laundry Stratford London
RG number: RG14
Piece: 9058
Reference: RG14PN9058 RG78PN481 RD180 SD1 ED8 SN279
Registration District: Chesterton
Sub District: Chesterton
Enumeration District: 8
Parish: Chesterton
Address: Rock End Histon Road Cambridge
County: Cambridgeshire

Chris :)

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 11 Sep 2012 16:34

A choice of John Riley in 1861. Not impressed by any of them. All the way through the census' his age always ends in 4 and always Worksop/Worsop so yob always c1847.


Surname Forenames Born in Place of birth Location in 1861 Transcription Image
Riley John 1848 Gringley East Retford, Gringley View
Riley John 1845 Worksop Mansfield, Pleasley View
Riley John 1845 Pinxton Mansfield, Blackwell View
Riley John 1848 Stoke On Trent Basford, Ilkestone View
Riley John 1848 Ilkeston Basford, Ilkestone View
Riley John 1848 Ilkeston Basford, Ilkestone View
Riley John 1846 Nottingham St Marys Radford, Radford View
Riley John 1849 Nottingham Nottingham, Castle View
Riley John 1847 Stapleford Shardlow, Stapleford

John born 1845 on here is the only one born Worksop. I can't remember the way ages were rounded down on the very old census' so might not be relevant on the 1861.

Anyway, transcription for John born Worksop. Maybe it is him and he wanted a more exciting life?? What you could try is a process of illimination. Take each JR and try to find them in later census' to prove which one isn't yours.

1861 Census Household Record

Household Information
Address Scarcliff
Parish Scarcliffe
District Mansfield, Pleasley
Administrative County Nottinghamshire
Householder 1
Name Robert Bayohaw
Age 38
Estimated Year of Birth 1823
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Farmer Of 200 Acres Of Land
Birth Place Scarcliffe
Birth County Derbyshire
Householder 2
Name John Bayohaw
Age 42
Estimated Year of Birth 1819
Relationship to Head of Household Brother
Occupation
Birth Place Scarcliffe
Birth County Derbyshire
Householder 3
Name Joseph Bayohaw
Age 36
Estimated Year of Birth 1825
Relationship to Head of Household Brother
Occupation
Birth Place Scarcliffe
Birth County Derbyshire
Householder 4
Name Sarah A Bayohaw
Age 27
Estimated Year of Birth 1834
Relationship to Head of Household Sister
Occupation
Birth Place Scarcliffe
Birth County Derbyshire
Householder 5
Name Joseph Mellors
Age 17
Estimated Year of Birth 1844
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Carter
Birth Place Langwith
Birth County Derbyshire
Householder 6
Name John Riley
Age 16
Estimated Year of Birth 1845
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Carter
Birth Place Worksop
Birth County Nottinghamshire
Householder 7
Name George Birkinshaw
Age 15
Estimated Year of Birth 1846
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Carter
Birth Place Worksop
Birth County Nottinghamshire

Have not been able to pin him down in FreeBMD either.

Think that the way to go is Ernest's birth cert, parents marriage which will then hopefully give John's father's name. Will keep pottering though.J

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 11 Sep 2012 16:45

Just re-read your original post. JR died 1901 age 56 so yob = 1845. This makes the 1861 entry ideal for him. All just speculation of course.

10 matches for John Riley in the 1851 Census


Surname Forenames Born in Place of birth Location in 1851 Transcription Image
Riley John 1846 Gringley East Retford, Gringley View
Riley John 1844 Clayworth East Retford, Tuxford View
Riley John 1845 Warsop Mansfield, Warsop View
Riley John 1845 Pinxton Mansfield, Blackwell View
Riley John 1843 Bagthorpe Basford, Greasley View
Riley John 1843 Eastwood Basford, Greasley View
Riley John 1847 Ilkeston Basford, Ilkeston View
Riley John 1847 Ilkeston Basford, Ilkeston View
Riley John 1846 Radford, Radford View
Riley John W 1847 Stapleford Shardlow, Stapleford View


1851 Census Household Record

Household Information
Address Back Lane
Parish Warsop
District Mansfield, Warsop
Administrative County Nottinghamshire
Householder 1
Name Henry Riley
Age 36
Estimated Year of Birth 1815
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Excavator
Birth Place Warsop
Birth County Nottinghamshire
Householder 2
Name Janet Riley
Age 27
Estimated Year of Birth 1824
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation
Birth Place Scotland Arman
Birth County
Householder 3
Name John Riley
Age 6
Estimated Year of Birth 1845
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Scholar
Birth Place Warsop
Birth County Nottinghamshire
Householder 4
Name Thomas Riley
Age 4
Estimated Year of Birth 1847
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Scholar
Birth Place Warsop
Birth County Nottinghamshire
Householder 5
Name Mary Ann Riley
Age 2
Estimated Year of Birth 1849
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Warsop
Birth County Nottinghamshire

JustDinosaurJill

JustDinosaurJill Report 11 Sep 2012 16:52

This entry seems to match with the one I just posted but as nowhere have we picked up a middle name..... All definitely in the relms of speculation now.

John Davison Riley
England, Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

christening: 30 Aug 1844 WARSOP,?NOTTINGHAM,?ENGLAND
parents: Henry Riley,? Janet
name: John Davison Riley
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 30 Aug 1844
baptism/christening place: WARSOP,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
father's name: Henry Riley
mother's name: Janet
indexing project (batch) number: C05414-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: