Genealogy Chat

What a great find Carole. The photos with the planning application are great. I love the stained glass window on the staircase and the staircase itself is lovely. Your ancestors must have been quite wealthy to be able to live in such a lovely house and have a cook, housemaid, governess and nurse.

Kath. x

I have decided that I cannot move forward with this until I return to the UK for Christmas. Then I will go to Kew.
Meanwhile I spent yesterday sorting what I have and know into a file, so I will be ready when the time comes.

Then later yesterday I had a different Eureka moment. I found Rothbury House, in Stow Park Circle (was Circus in the 1880s), the home of Mary Ruth and Thomas Dawson, where all this played out. It became a nursing home sometime in the 1900s but was abandoned in 2006 and since then has been progressively falling into disrepair. Now, as a listed building, requests were put forward to restore and renovate it. It was the planning application that I found. It seems that English Heritage have approved proposals and work is underway. It was built in 1882 so probably for the Dawsons as they certainly moved there between 1881 and 1891. There are photos and plans and it is all very exciting. It is an impressive property, little wonder the death of an owner could have incurred death duties.
I might start a new thread on it? See if it attracts the attention of any Newport, South Wales history enthusiasts?

Ivy
Thank you so much! That is a mammoth effort on your part and it is going to take some time to digest. Not because you didn't explain well; but because I am so butterfly brained that I don't have too much patience with leaflets and instructions. My husband is always saying RTM !!! (read the manual), when I ask a technical question.
But I can see that within all the IRs and numbers and dates, which right now look alarming, there is a wealth of information.
Later today I intend to clear my desk, AND MY MIND, and start afresh, using your and everyone else's input, to set out, physically in front of me - what I know as fact already - notes on what I learn from accessing the Nat Archives website (not a prospect I relish) - notes on everything I still need to find - list where I might find various info and documents - list my options of how to go about it.

I love lists. Hopefully, when I have the whole picture, set out in ONE place in front of me, rather than jumping around the computer, ALL will become clear. That is the plan but it is going to take a bit of time.

I'll let you all know if, NO, when I have a Eureka moment.
Meanwhile ongoing gratitude to you all.
Carole

(Thank you A for your email re. a researcher. It could be a VERY good idea. I don't like to be beaten though! Let me work on this a little more and then I'll get back to you. C)

Hi Carole, having taken a closer look at pages 2 and 3 on FMP, I agree with your reading as 38800/88, especially, as you say, the only other "not proved" entry is clearly five digits then '/' then '88'.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you do find a will.

I've had a look at the entry on Find My Past. I'm certainly not an expert - I think the nearest I got to this was just once looking at microfilmed registers when they were held in Chancery Lane before being moved to Kew, so probably 30 years ago...

The leaflets Annie Laurie pointed out above take you a bit further, i.e.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/deathduty.htm?WT.lp=rg-3122 and

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/death-duty-records-1796-to-1903.htm

show that the index to the death duty registers (on FMP) are catalogued as IR27 and the registers themselves at IR26.

Your entry from IR27 gives a ref to the IR26 record, and the second leaflet explains that whether she left a will or died intestate, the legacy duty that would have been payable on her property would have been recorded in the batch of records running from IR26 3434 to IR26 4855 (i.e. in the period 1882-1894).

I would therefore read your IR27 extract for the columns headed "Court", "Register" and "Folio" as "Sub" (perhaps short for 'subject to duty'?) and then a four digit reference beginning "38.."? Perhaps the remainder is a reference to the folio within the register? (EDIT - probably not, see below)

Although death duty registers have been digitised (so searchable online with results downloaded online), this is only up to 1811; and only microfilmed up to 1857 (presumably because most estates subject to duty after 1857 can be found more easily by looking for the will....).

After 1857, it will be a matter of looking at the original registers themselves, once you are able to provide the correct reference to call for the original IR26 document. Since the reference in your IR27 record is so unclear, it might be easiest to use the paid search service so that someone can look in the IR26 catalogue finding aids which are physically located at Kew.

There is a page here:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/paid_research.htm
which gives you a number of options if you cannot find anyone going to Kew in the near future as Kath has suggested.

As to why IR27 states that it was "not proved", no doubt there are many possible reasons. From reading the leaflet, it suggests that legacy duty was not charged on real estate (land and buildings), so that only "personalty" (linen, silver other chattels etc?) would be charged, and that if this was all inherited by the surviving spouse then in 1888 there would have been no charge. I wonder if the family took a pragmatic decision to let the property pass to her husband - is he the Thomas Dawson mentioned in the IR27 extract, or had her husband predeceased her? EDIT - ah yes, I have now gone back and re-read page 1, where you say that her husband remarried a few years later.

Carole

You could always post a request on here for someone who is visiting the National Archives for themselves to do a look-up for you. You'd be surprised at how good some people are.

When I first started out on researching my family history I found that my granddad was born in a workhouse in London and that the records of his mother's admittance and discharge at the workhouse were at the London Metropolitan Archives. I very nice gentleman who was a member of Genes at that time offered to find the records for me the next time he was there and sent me photocopies of all the relevant records for my ancestors and wouldn't take anything for his trouble other than the cost of photocopying. I will be forever grateful to him as I couldn't have visited the archives myself.

It would certainly be worth asking.

Kath. x

Carole - death duties are calculated from the amount in the estate, from information provided by the executor. They are payable, if due, whether there is a will or not, and the executor works out the amount by adding up all known assets of the deceased i.e. property, bank accounts, savings, personal possessions etc.

These days, when you get the necessary forms to prove a will, the form for paying death duties (properly called "Inheritance Tax") is included. Once the finances have been worked out, if the total is enough for death duty to be payable, the form is sent off and the resultant tax has to be paid before probate can be granted. This can cause huge problems if the family can't lay their hands on enough ready cash to pay the bill.

If there was enough in "your" estate for duty to be payable, I would have thought it essential to prove the will to reimburse whoever paid it.

I have just looked on Google and seen under FMP that up until 1903 Death Duty Registers contained copies of wills, so there must be one somewhere, just not on the Probate Registry, as it wasn't proved.

annielaurie hello

Wish I could but sadly the distance factor is too great , but the sunshine does make up for it. We will be home for Christmas so I might go then. No-one in my family shares my interest, so some hope that I might persuade anyone to go for me. Their eyes just glaze over if I even mention the subject.
I am very reliant on what I can do online. It is limiting but is getting better and better.
I just wish certificates could be delivered online. Having to wait for 'snail mail' to reach me here is a painfully long wait, and things too often get lost in transit.

You can just read the National Archives Research Guides to Death Duty Records here which will tell you what they have. They won't search for you - you'd have to go there or get someone to go for you

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/atoz/d.htm#

Thanks you two

Helpful! Food for thought
Now this needs a bit more consideration on my part. Just so I get it right first time.
It isn't actually a will as such. That entry on Findmypast is actually the INDEX to DEATH DUTY REGISTERS. I think, apart from assessing what we must give to the State, these carry much the same information as actual wills, bequests, beneficiaries etc. This information has to have been obtained from a will. If Mary Ruth was placed in the Index ,she must have had an entry in the Death Duty Register.
But it bothers me that there seems to be no record of a will from which information could have been extracted.
I'm frightfully ignorant about these things but I am now wondering if it was a will that was 'not proved' . . . or the need to proceed with charging death duties that was 'not proved'? Maybe, as the family were comfortably off, when her death was notified, it was assumed that she had money and documents were prepared -- but then it turned out she didn't have a personal fortune. Possible????
I really do need an expert but before I approach one I must get my thoughts together so I ask the right questions. I am really beginning to tie myself in knots. Brain ache!
Will let you know how I get on.

I think "live chat" is actually email, but with instant replies guaranteed, like a conversation.

If you don't get anywhere with Leeds Probate Office, why don't you copy your first post on this thread, modify it a bit, and use it to start your "live chat"? It says everything you need to start the enquiry.

My personal view is that if the will has got as far as being given Court references, then there is/was a copy somewhere official at some point. (An executor who hadn't bothered would still have the will in his desk drawer!!)

Good luck.

My first thought was that it was Leeds - but now I'm not so sure.

This is the address and phone number for the Leeds Probate Office.

LEEDS
Leeds District Probate Registry
Coronet House
3rd Floor
Queen Street
Leeds, LS1 2BA
Tel: 0113 386 3540

You could ring them and ask how to go about getting a copy of the will. I'm sure they will be easier to contact than the National Archives. Even if the Will was not proved I'm sure they will be able to tell you your options and whether or not you can get a copy. When you apply for a copy of a Will you can apply to any of the Probate Offices so it doesn't matter if it was not at Leeds.

Kath. x

A final (I think/hope) question, before I e-mail the National Archives - can anyone who has looked at the original image, on Find my Past, suggest what the word in the 'Court column', before the string of numbers might be?

It occurs again, on page three of 1888, connected to another "not proved" entry so I assume it is a standard legal term in such circumstances?

It looks as if it begins with an S or possibly D and the word consists of 4 or 5 letters.

I assume the five numbers, following the word, are those of a document; then there is a slash and two more numbers which I think indicate the year.

If I knew that word I would not have to go through this rigmarole in my e-mail to the NA.
I don't think I can 'live chat' with them as I am currently living abroad.

Carole

I think we must all be eternal optimists otherwise we wouldn't keeping chipping away at those 'brickwalls'..... Always a difficult task with fingers permanently crossed :-D

Chris

Thank you so much for your help and suggestions.
Maybe not the full answer yet - but forward progress has been made.
I will certainly report if I find more.
I will leave this thread open for a bit. You never know a "Death Duty Records Expert" might just happen my way. The eternal optimist me.

Bye for now
Carole

Sorry even trying wildcard combinations hasn't given a result so it looks as if there was no will proved or administration granted.

If I was you, I think I would be concentrating on the last three columns, Court, Register and Folio. It is, in my opinion, a reference to a register (or maybe correspondance?) but I haven't, in my limited experience, seen it written that way.

I think you need a Death Duty Records expert and maybe contacting the NA would be the way to go.
I have never used their live talk facility but have visited the NA and If the live talk operators are anything like the staff I have met they will be more than helpful. Having said that it might be easier to send the query through their contact form.

If you do get a result then please post back here and let us all know what it actually meant.

Good luck
Chris

Thanks Chris

Is that a definitive collection?

Fingers crossed for wild cards!

It would appear not I am sad to say....

A search on Ancestry in the collecton 'England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966' shows no entry for a Mary Ruth Dawson in any time frame.

That was on a straight name search....Will try a few wildcards.

Chris

The burning question!!
Can I get a copy? If so how please?

Thanks Chris and Andysmum

Is it difficult to get a copy of a will? We can go on surmising for ever.

As the date is later than 'the married woman's property act' we can discount that anything Mary Ruth had went automatically to husband/executor Thomas Dawson.
However she might have LEFT everything to him?
He was a successful business man and knew his way around banks and money and probably had a 'tame' solicitor? He probably simply reabsorbed anything his wife had, back into the family? There is no reason to believe Mary Ruth had much money. Her parents had been comfortably off but her mother was widowed early and was still alive when Mary Ruth died.
There is an interesting precedent in the family though. Mary Ruth's great aunt, in the 1840s, had left all her properties ONLY to her nieces, with the proviso that they were for them alone and their husbands were in no way to benefit from the bequests. Mary Ruth's mother Eleanor Gill would have been one such beneficiary. I think they were a breed of women who knew their own minds.