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Sailor to Shipwright is it possible?

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 17 Apr 2013 21:16

Hi Potty,

That's absolutely brilliant, I did search for them yesterday with no luck, but I have been informed that they change their database every 6 weeks, so I'm wondering if this is the reason you found them and also explain why sometimes I can find my own family and sometimes I can't.

I suspected that her maiden name was Hay.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure I am following the right family, there are quite a few James who were shipwrights / ships carpenters / sailors but none of them say Ships Steward. I did notice that the father's name on the census I was following was John and not James, but just considered the fact that because his son was named James it avoided confusion, plus some people use a 2nd name as a 1st name. My grandfather was called John but he was only known as Jack so anyone who knew him after he married only ever knew him as Jack, especially when they moved area, so it's just possible the same in this instance.

The only thing for sure is that his name was James Miller single in 1931 aged 48 and he married in Liverpool and that his father was also named James a ship's steward.

I have searched for a James matching him and came across a family in Liverpool whose parents & some siblings originated in Scotland with a connection to a ship. I have tried to find any family connection to either witness with no luck. I searched the names and came across one that was born in the same area (Warrington) where the groom died so wondered if the family moved there, but again after his death his wife remarried in West Derby - so that didn't quite fit either.

But thanks again, it's very much appreciated,

Regards, Lou

Potty

Potty Report 17 Apr 2013 12:44

Just noticed that the marriage cert you have for James b1883 gives his father's name as James, not John and that the occupation is ship's steward. I wonder if you have followed back the correct family.

Potty

Potty Report 17 Apr 2013 12:27

Noticing Sarah's middle name in the 1911, I wonder if this could be her marriage:



Sarah Hay, "Scotland, Marriages, 1561-1910"



Name: John Miller
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Sarah Hay
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 11 Jul 1873
Event Place: Saint Nicholas,Aberdeen,Aberdeen,Scotland

And this is possibly the birth of the oldest child, Jane,

Name: Jane Ann Miller Family Tree
Gender: Female
Christening Date:
Christening Place:
Birth Date: 26 Oct 1873
Birthplace: SAINT NICHOLAS,ABERDEEN,ABERDEEN,SCOTLAND
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Miller
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Sarah Hay
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11168-3
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
GS Film number: 6035516
Reference ID

both of these records are from familysearch site.

There is a birth for a James Miller in the same area on scotlandspeople, the birth registration will give you his parents' names and the date and place of their marriage:

No Year Surname Forename Sex District City/
County/
MR GROS
Data Image Extract
1 1876 MILLER JAMES M ST NICHOLAS ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/01 1308

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 23:44

No problem Stuart, but thank you so much for your terrific help.

I'd like to wish you good luck in your own hunting, and thanks again,

Lou x :-)

Stuart

Stuart Report 16 Apr 2013 23:40

If you say that the 1881 Scottish census is correct then you are looking at 2 different families. They can't be in Scotland and Liverpool at the same time.

Also - Sarah the mother in Scotland is born in Ireland whilst the Sarah in Liverpool is born Scotland (Aberdeen if you chase her through to 1911)

1911 census transcription details for: 59 Cockerell St Dirkdale Liverpool

National Archive Reference:
RG14PN22447 RG78PN1323 RD455 SD6 ED4 SN107
Reg. District: West Derby
Sub District: Kirkdale
Parish: Kirkdale
Enum. District: 4
Address: 59 Cockerell St Dirkdale Liverpool
County: Lancashire
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
MILLER, James Son Single M 29 1882 Shipwright Seagoing W Star Co Lancs Lpool Eng
MILLER, Donald Son Single M 26 1885 Unemployed Dock Labourer Lancs Lpool Eng
MILLER, Sarah Hay Mother Widow F 60 1851 Invalid Inward Aberbury*** Scotland Resident

***Aberdeen on original. Incorrectly completed to say married 37 years, 10 children born, 2 have since died

Sorry but have to leave it there until morning. Hopefully someone will be able to help you out.

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 23:24

Hi Stuart, Wow, thanks for finding the boys.

I also found James (nephew) living with an aunt and wondered the same thing,.

It's good to know you've also found them, gives me hope that I'm on the correct trail. It never occurred to me to look for the boys I just assumed they had died. The business with the christian name change for the father from John / James has confused me somewhat and I keep going over all I've found.

Thanks Stuart it's added a bit more meat. You obviously think it's the same family.

Lou

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 23:16

Hi Stuart

that's them. Do you still think it's the same family - even though the father's name has changed from James to John?

Thanks, Lou


Thank you Andysmum.

Stuart

Stuart Report 16 Apr 2013 23:14

The family by 1901 - George and Robert the youngest sons are in the Liverpool Seaman Orphan Institution

1901 census transcription details for: 106, Teulon Street, Kirkdale

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 3465
Folio: 140
Page: 38
Reg. District: West Derby
Sub District: Kirkdale
Parish: Kirkdale
Enum. District: 5
Ecclesiastical District: St Mary's
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 106, Teulon Street, Kirkdale
County: Lancashire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
MILLER, Sarah Head Widow F 48 1853 CharwomanScotland Aberdeen
MILLER, John Son Single M 25 1876 Ship Carpenter Scotland Aberdeen
MILLER, Sarah Daughter Single F 24 1877 Preserve Works Scotland Aberdeen
MILLER, William Son Single M 20 1881 Ship Scalers Liverpool, Lancashire
MILLER, Donald Son Single M 17 1884 Ship Scalers Liverpool, Lancashire

and I wonder if this is 1883 JAmes ??
1901 census transcription details for: 46, Othello Street, Kirkdale

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 3471
Folio: 90
Page: 21
Reg. District: West Derby
Sub District: Kirkdale
Parish: Kirkdale
Enum. District: 40
Ecclesiastical District: St Pauls
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 46, Othello Street, Kirkdale
County: Lancashire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
MITCHELL, Mary Wife Married F 63 1838 England
MILLER, Ellen Head Married F 45 1856 Liverpool, Lancashire
MILLER, James Son Single M 20 1881 Ships Carpenter Liverpool, Lancashire
MILLER, James Nephew Single M 17 1884 Ships Carpenter Liverpool, Lancashire <<<

Stuart

Stuart Report 16 Apr 2013 23:03

Your 1891 Liverpool Millers are there in 1881 SArah states married, so presume husband may be away
1881 census transcription details for: 38, Sumner St, Liverpool

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG11
Piece: 3600
Folio: 83
Page: 23
Reg. District: Liverpool
Sub District: St Martin
Parish: Liverpool
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 38, Sumner St, Liverpool
County: Lancashire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
MILLER, Sarah Wife Head Married F 29 1852 Ship Carpenters Wife Scotland
MILLER, Jane Daughter Single F 7 1874 ScholarScotland
MILLER, John Son Single M 5 1876 Scholar Scotland
MILLER, Sarah Daughter Single F 4 1877 Scotland
MILLER, Emily Daughter Single F 2 1879 Liverpool, Lancashire
MILLER, William Son Single M 0 1881 Liverpool, Lancashire

Andysmum

Andysmum Report 16 Apr 2013 22:56

If you mean Malcolm's post, he said it was more than likely that a carpenter would become a shipwright, with which I agree.

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 22:53

Stuart,

sorry for this confusion, but this is the family I have, they now live in Liverpool. The James b 1883 married in Liverpool, so I think this is his family, I have no proof that he was born in Liverpool,

1891 Miller family >> living in Kirkdale, Liverpool

John ( should be James) b 1851 Scotland Shipwright ???? his name has changed
Sarah b 1853 Scotland
John son b 1876 Scotland Shipwright’s apprentice
Sarah daub 1877 Scotland
Emily dau b 1879 Liverpool
William son b 1881 Liverpool
James son b 1883 Liverpool
Donald son b 1884 Liverpool
George son b 1889 Liverpool
Robert son b 1890 Liverpool

They are really starting to confuse me now.

what do you think

Lou

Stuart

Stuart Report 16 Apr 2013 22:48

The James Miller you have for 1881 (above) would appear to have died by 1891 - this is the same family (with a son Alexander born 1883 Scotland, not a James in Liverpool)

1891 census transcription details for: Merkland Street, Govan

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 646
Folio: 11
Page: 2
Reg. District: Partick
Sub District:
Parish: Govan
Enum. District: 11
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Merkland Street, Govan
County: Lanarkshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
MILLER, Sarah Head Widow F 38 1853 Hardware Shopwoman Ireland
MILLER, Barbara Daughter Unmarried F 18 1873 Paralysed From Birth Partick, Lanarkshire
MILLER, Robert Son Unmarried M 15 1876 Plumbers App Glasgow, Lanarkshire
MILLER, James Son M 13 1878 Errand Boy Partick, Lanarkshire
MILLER, Catherine Daughter F 10 1881 ScholarPartick, Lanarkshire
MILLER, Alexander Son M 8 1883 Scholar Partick, Lanarkshire

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 22:48

Andysmum,

Thanks for your reply, that's thrown me, as someone else mentioned that it was more than likely.

Oh dear this family is really starting to confuse me now! :-(

But thanks again for your input. As I always say the more info you get the more you learn.
Thanks again,

Lou

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 22:43

Stuart, it's the Scottish census.


Name: James Miller
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Sarah Miller
Gender: Male
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration number: 646/2
Registration district: Partick
Civil parish: Partick
Town: Partick
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 13 Anderson St
Occupation: Ship Joiner
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 30
Line: 12
Roll: cssct1881_257
Household Members:
Name Age
James Miller 29
Sarah Miller 29
Barbara Miller 8
Robert Miller 5
James Miller 3
Catherine Miller 10 Mo

Andysmum

Andysmum Report 16 Apr 2013 22:42

A shipwright is a skilled craftsman and in Victorian times would be on board the wooden ships to carry out maintenance/repairs. He would have to be an experienced joiner/carpenter and a vital member of the crew.

I think it unlikely that a shipwright would become a steward and that the entries above are two different people or, possibly, an error on the marriage certificate?

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 22:37

No - this is him

James Miller b 1852 Glasgow Ship Joiner
Sarah wife b 1852 Ireland
Barbara daughter b 1873 Partick, Lanarkshire
Robert son b 1876 Glasgow
James son b 1878 Partick, Lanarkshire
Catherine daugh b 1880 Partick, Lanarkshire

Stuart

Stuart Report 16 Apr 2013 22:18

Is this the 1881 you refer to? Nothing to say for sure this is the same person as 1871
1881 census transcription details for: 3, Corporation Rd, Throston

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG11
Piece: 4905
Folio: 105
Page: 1
Reg. District: Hartlepool
Sub District: Hartlepool
Parish: Throston
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 3, Corporation Rd, Throston
County: Durham
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
MUIRHEAD, John Head Married M 44 1837 Ship Model Maker & Builder Scotland
MUIRHEAD, Jane Wife Married F 45 1836 Scotland
MILLER, James Lodger Single M 28 1853 Ship Joiner Scotland
WOODS, Thomas Lodger Single M 27 1854 Ship Joiner Scotland

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 21:59

Hi Stuart,

Yes that's them.

Lou

Stuart

Stuart Report 16 Apr 2013 21:51

1871 census with James Senior and JAmes second generation

1871 census transcription details for: 240, Elgin Place Chapel Congregational, Pitt Street, Barony

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 644
Folio: 48
Page: 7
Reg. District: Blythswood
Sub District:
Parish: Barony
Enum. District: 48
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 240, Elgin Place Chapel Congregational, Pitt Street, Barony
County: Lanarkshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
MILLER, James Head Married M 46 1825 Church Officer Thornwood, Renfrewshire
MILLER, Leonora M Wife Married F 45 1826 Church Officer's Wife East Kilbride, Lanarkshire
MILLER, James Son Unmarried M 19 1852 Sailor Glasgow, Lanarkshire
MILLER, Archibald Son Unmarried M 14 1857 Joiner Apprentice Glasgow, Lanarkshire
MILLER, Charles H Son M 11 1860 Scholar Glasgow, Lanarkshire
MILLER, Walter S Son M 9 1862 Scholar Glasgow, Lanarkshire
MILLER, Thomas Son M 4 1867 Glasgow, Lanarkshire

~Looby Loo~

~Looby Loo~ Report 16 Apr 2013 21:31

I've double checked with my friend and she's confirmed he was a bachelor when he married :-(

Thanks anyway.

Lou