Genealogy Chat

Hi Stuart and LadyKira,

I eventually found the marriage of George Tushingham to Annie Probyn in the Lancashire BMD. Dated 1902. Liverpool, St Michael. Ref 2054LP/11/133.

I am so sorry I didn't tell you before all the hard work put in by both of you, as we were going on holiday the next day and busy getting things together.

Annie, however, had misrepresented her status in the 1901 census before they married, as already being George's wife. (In Common law, maybe!)

I have no idea why I didn't try the Lancashire BMD earlier!

Apologies again!

Horrace

A belated thank you to LadyKira and Stuart for their latest contributions.

Sorry for the delay...been on holiday for over a week! :-)

Canada, Ocean Arrivals (Form 30A), 1919-1924 about Edmund C Jones
Name: Edmund C Jones
Gender: Male
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Birth Place: Liverpool, England
Age: 70
Date of Arrival: May 1922
Port of Arrival: Quebec
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Albania

Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1938 and Deaths Overseas, 1939-1947 about Edmund Crowdson Jones
Name: Edmund Crowdson Jones
Death Date: 8 Sep 1924
Death County or District: Carleton
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Birth Location: England

Ottawa, Canada, Beechwood Cemetery Registers, 1873-1990 about Edmund Crewdson Jones
Name: Edmund Crewdson Jones
Birth Date: abt 1852
Birth Location: England
Gender: Male
Death Date: 8 Sep 1924
Age: 72
Parent(s): John and Jane Jones
14 Spedina Avenue


1911 Address: 4 Edge Lane Liverpool
WATTS, John Head Married M 47 1864 Commercial Traveller Northampton Wellingboro
WATTS, Elizabeth Wife Married22 years F 45 1866 Lancs Liverpool
WATTS, Edward Athya Son Single M 21 1890 Manager Lancs Liverpool
WATTS, Gwladys Lilian Daughter Single F 19 1892 Lancs Liverpool
WATTS, Elsie May Daughter Single F 18 1893 Lancs Liverpool
WATTS, Margaret Josephine Daughter Single F 16 1895 Lancs Liverpool
JONES, Mary Rondson Visitor Married F 62 1849 Flint Moslyn
JONES, Edward Rondson Visitor Married M 60 1851 Builder Lancs Liverpool
SMITH, Amanda Servant Single F 16 1895 General Servant Domestic Lancs Liverpool

I had to rush off to work this morning but can now post about Edmund Crowdson Jones.
If you are not sure about who married who do some reearch on the other party as Stuart said.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Edmund Croudson Jones
Name: Edmund Croudson Jones
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1851
Registration District: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 20
Page: 1086

Liverpool, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Edmund Croudson Jones
Name: Edmund Croudson Jones
Birth Date: 31 Oct 1851
Baptism Date: 5 Sep 1854
Parish: Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name: John Jones
Mother's Name: Jane Jones
Reference Number: 283 PET/2/42

1911 England Census about Edmund Rosedson Jones
Name: Edmund Rosedson Jones
Age in 1911: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation to Head: Visitor
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 4 Edge Lane Liverpool
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Builder
Registration District: West Derby
Registration District Number: 455
Sub-registration District: West Derby Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Piece: 22586
Household Members:
Name Age
John Watts 47
Elizabeth Watts 45
Edward Athya Watts 21
Gladys Lilian Watts 19
Elsie May Watts 18
Margaret Josephine Watts 16
Mary Rosedson Jones 62 <<<< mistranscribed
Edmund Rosedson Jones 60 <<<, "
Amanda Smith 16

As given to you by Astra page 1 where she has marked the "pair" (or even in the form shown in previous post).

Marriages Jun 1902 (>99%)
Jones Edmund Crowdson Liverpool 8b 111
>>PROBYN Annie Liverpool 8b 111
Thoms Mary Liverpool 8b 111
>>Tushingham George Liverpool 8b 111

This is the 4 people who married on this reference number. It doesn't necessarily mean that Jones married Probyn because they were listed first and second or Thoms married Tushingham because they were listed third and fourth.
In Lancashire you are lucky with Lancs BMD and Lancs OPC, such a lot has been transcribed and the pairings are shown. Another way to check can be to look at the following census and as long as you don't have 2 John Smiths and 2 Susan's listed you should hopefully be able to find the pairs. It doesn't always work, but can be very helpful.

Hi Astra,

That is great information Astra!

Thank you very much for your continued help.

The information I referred to, and followed up, was given to me in this form, by one of our colleagues!

"Marriages Jun 1902. Jones Edmund Crowdson, Liverpool 8b111
PROBYN Annie, Liverpool 8b111
Thoms Mary, Liverpool 8b111
Tushingham George, Liverpool 8b111

And the results of which search I made, you have just seen and commented on

H

Hi Horrace
Where did you find that information?

This is the marriage record from Lancs BMD.

Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PROBYN Annie TUSHINGHAM George Liverpool, St. Michael in the City Liverpool 2054LP/11/133

So it appears she did marry George Tushingham and it is OK to order the cerrt. to confirm.

Astra
x

Astra and Stuart,

I've looked at the records of those marriages in Liverpool in 1902 that you both mention:

One: Annie Probin (sic) married Edmund Crowdson Jones. and...
One: George Tushlingham (sic) married Mary Thoms.

So there is no record of the pair you suggest, in order to have the basis for ordering their marriage certificate.

Correct me if you think I'm wrong, please. :-)

You're most welcome Horrace.
I look forward to finding out if the marriage is correct or not,

Astra
x

Hi Astra and Stuart,

You two also gave me useful data on the death of the first Mary (Richardson). She seems, as you say Astra, to have died in childbirth having John. And her age on marriage did throw me a little Stuart. Also the 1888 death I found was the wrong person and much later.
H :-)

I too have been in the situation that what I thought I knew did not tie in with facts. Always a good idea to step ack a bit and be open minded.
I looked at the Chester pubs and want to show my OH.
He went to King's School Chester and some of his mispent youth in Chester pubs. He took me to the Boot in the Rows once. Very atmospheric.

Hello LadyKira,

Yes, it would seem so!

My apologies for not following up your suggestion and information. I've looked back at all your contributions to my queries and you gave me a lot of useful data. There were so many things to think about after I'd received all the advice from our fellow researchers that I had to try to get my head around them all! But one fairly long contribution from you to my question gave me what I should have concentrated on and followed up. I was too 'fixed' in my own erroneous ideas that I completely lost sight of some of the more important contributions!


Best wishes and many thanks,

H :-)

So I see you have accepted my information as a strong probability now.

I think the death you have is actuall y Mary Jackson.

Remenber not all records are legible so her death may not be transcribed.

Hi Astra,

Thank you for your latest info. about John, as George's eldest son born of Mary Richardson. I'm intrigued that John never appears in any of the census records at The New Inn.

I think you've basically solved the whole mystery. I got 'stuck' in my thinking and should have taken a broader look at things, as you have done. But I'll take your advice and send for the marriage cert of Annie Probyn and George.
I'll let you know the outcome when I get the document.

H

I think that all the administration (probate) proves is that the executor of George's will was one John Richardson Tushingham.
John was his eldest son and probably took on the name Richardson to denote his parentage. He was a publican himself and when he died in Boughton in 1942 he left over £3,700 .
Personally I don't think that any of George's marriages were bigamous but I think you need to get the marriage certificate of Annie Probyn in 1902 in Liverpool or at least order it asking for confirmation of George's father's name.

Hi Astra and Stuart,

I can't get past the fact that the administration information I posted actually links George's licensed premises, The New Inn, with Mary Richardson's maiden name; it seems to clinch the deal. Of course, it could be mere coincidence but seems a bit unlikely. However, I'm far from infallible! :-)

My wife's mother, Fridiswid Mary Tushingham, was George's granddaughter and worked at The New Inn as a teenager, collecting empties and cleaning the bar and other public rooms.

I doubt we will ever get to solving this particular question though. But I'll still look at your information again.

Horrace :-)

It makes sense because in census records John gives his birthplace as Christleton which is in the Great Boughton registration district.
So I automatically checked Great Boughton as the area to search.
The birth is there and the death in the same quarter.
George notes himself as single in the 1871 census record and I think John is with the Atkin family as a boarder in Christleton.

1871 census transcription details for: Christleton, Christleton

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 3727
Folio: 40
Page: 26
Reg. District: Chester
Sub District: Chester Castle
Parish: Christleton
Enum. District: 11
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Christleton, Christleton
County: Cheshire
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
ATKIN, Joseph Head M 52 1819 Cheshire
ATKIN, Sarah Wife F 47 1824 Cheshire
ATKIN, Mary Daughter F 17 1854 Cheshire
TUSHINGHAM, John Boarder M 2 1869 Cheshire
JONES, Louise Visitor F 24 1847 Cheshire

Thanks Astra and Stuart. I shall take a look at your suggestions and get back sometime this weekend.

Horrace.

Again, suggested marriage by Astra immediately following the OP, with a suggestion further along as to why it may have been delayed and out of area

Marriages Jun 1902 (>99%)
Jones Edmund Crowdson Liverpool 8b 111
>>PROBYN Annie Liverpool 8b 111
Thoms Mary Liverpool 8b 111
>>Tushingham George Liverpool 8b 111

Posted 23 June 2013 as a possibility (same death as Astra has posted above)
????
Mary Richardson was said to be aged 21 when she married George in 1868 and her father was named as John.

I'm wondering about this Mary who has a father John. There is a birth in the Mar Qtr 1849 in the Great Boughton RD 19-46 of a Mary Richardson and death in the same RD 8A 261 in 1869 of a Mary Tushingham aged 19.

I know it makes the marriage age wrong, but that wouldn't be a first!

Great Boughton was an area to the East of but also part of Chester. Christleton and Barrow are within a couple of miles too.