Genealogy Chat

does anyone have any information on the above she was my gt grand- mother her husband was Walter Rose her father was called James I cannot find any information of her birth, according to her marriage certificate she was born in Hull, Yorkshire some confusion as to the year could be between 1862 - 1869 any help would be appreciated

Marriage certificates do not usually have a place of birth on them.

What occupation does she give for her father James?

Kath. x

Just for ref


First name(s) WALTER HENRY
Last name ROSE
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1891
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ WALTER HENRY ROSE married one of these people
SARAH SHADFORD, EMMA ANN SPENCER
District HULL
District number -
County Yorkshire
Country England
Volume 9D
Page 421
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

?

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
5, Strickland Street Humber Terrace, Hull, Holy Trinity and St Mary, Yorkshire, England

Learn more

Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Walter Rose Head Married Male 47 1854 Dock Labourer Norfolk, England
Emma Rose Wife Married Female 32 1869 - Hull, Yorkshire, England
George E Gill Son Single Male 17 1884 Boiler Makers Labourer Hull, Yorkshire, England
Mary Rose Daughter - Female 9 1892 - Hull, Yorkshire, England
Harry Rose Son - Male 7 1894 - Hull, Yorkshire, England
Ernest Rose Son - Male 3 1898 - Hull, Yorkshire, England
Elsie Rose Daughter - Female 0 1901 - Hull, Yorkshire, England
Jack Caveney Lodger Single Male 15 1886 Boiler Maker's Labourer Hull, Yorkshire, England
William Rose Son - Male 5 1896 - Hull, Yorkshire, England

Could Emma have been married previously?

In the census Rose has found there is a George E. Gill described as son. He can't be Walter's son or his surname would be Rose so could he be Emma's son from a previous marriage or born before she married which would make her maiden name Gill?

Kath. x

This looks like George E. Gill's birth:-

First name(s) GEORGE EDWARD
Last name GILL
Birth year 1884
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District HULL
County Yorkshire
Country England
Volume 9D
Page 273

and this looks like his baptism:-

First name(s) George Edward
Last name Gill
Birth year 1884
Birth date 29 Feb 1884
Baptism year 1884
Baptism date 09 Oct 1884
Baptism place Hull, St James
Denomination Anglican
Father's first name(s) Edward Harper
Mother's first name(s) Emma
County Yorkshire (East Riding)
Country England
Archive East Riding Archives & Local Studies Service
Archive reference PE 160/5
Page 9
Record set Yorkshire Baptisms

Kath. x

Possible death of Edward Harper Gill:

Deaths Dec 1887 (>99%)
Gill Edward Harper 37 Hull 9d 156

The only marriage showing on FreeBMD for that specific name is in 1869, so clearly not the husband of Emma born c1869.

Can't see a marriage in Hull of an Edward Gill to an Emma before 1884.

Emma and Walter are together in 1891, so she took his surname before they married. And George has surname Rose :

Walter Rose

in the 1891 England Census
Name: Walter Rose
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma Rose
Gender: Male
Where born: Strumpshaw, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: Kingston upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hull
Sub registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 62
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3943
Folio: 57
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Walter Rose 35
Emma Rose 28
George Rose 7
Bella Rose 1

Both the 1891 and 1911 censuses give her YOB as 1862, which ought to make this her birth:

Births Jun 1862 (>99%)
YOUNG Emma Ann Hull 9d 211

But there are no marriages for her in any possible year.


On the other hand,
If YOB stated 1901 is correct, then this would be her:

Births Dec 1868 (>99%)
WRANGHAM Emma Ann Hull 9d 214

but she died in infancy:
Deaths Jun 1869 (>99%)
Wrangham Emily Ann 0 Hull 9d 155

(I'm guessing her parents were Emily A and Richard H Wrangham, who were in Hull in 1871.)

But Emma Ann Young isn't her either - her father's William, and Emma Rose's father's James;

Emma A Young
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Emma A Young
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: William Young
Mother's name: Mary A Young
Gender: Female
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Kingston upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hull
Sub-registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Household schedule number: 103
Piece: 4792
Folio: 82
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
William Young 45
Mary A Young 37
Ann E Young 13
James W Young 11
Emma A Young 9
John H Young 5
Charles E Young 3
Thomas A Young 9 Months

Yorkshire Baptisms Transcription

First name(s) Isabella
Last name Rose
Birth year 1889
Birth date 03 Nov 1889
Baptism year 1889
Baptism date 20 Nov 1889
Baptism place Hull, St James
Denomination Anglican
Father's first name(s) Walter
Mother's first name(s) Emma
County Yorkshire (East Riding)
Country England
Archive East Riding Archives & Local Studies Service
Archive reference PE 160/5
Page 105
Record set Yorkshire Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

Births Dec 1889 (>99%)
Rose Isabella Hull 9d 297

I wonder if this unmarried man could be Emma's father. I don't see him in censuses after 1871 -

Jas Spencer
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Jas Spencer
Age: 36
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Elizth Spencer
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Holy Trinity
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Kingston upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hull
Sub-registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Household schedule number: 160
Piece: 4791
Folio: 164
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizth Spencer 59
Jas Spencer 36 - house painter
Josh L Spencer 31
Wm Spencer 22
Wm Birdsall 11 - grandson


Possibly his death ??

Deaths Sep 1874 (>99%)
Spencer James Edward 40 Hull 9d 169


Just a wild idea that Emma might have been born with her mother's maiden surname, then later used her father's name.

But haven't got the energy to trawl through all the Emmas born 1862 in Hull, per the 1871 census, looking for one with an unmarried mother!

from the Yorkshire bmd, it looks as though Walter and Emma married in a Registry Office. It does not indicate that she had another surname (as the county bmds usually seem to do).

Yorkshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1891

Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference

ROSE Walter H SPENCER Emma A Hull Register Offices or Registrar Attended Hull HRO/34/37

Is this Emma living with her daughter, Ethel Charlton (nee Rose)?

1939

Charlton Household (3 People) 80 Redbourne Street , Kingston-upon-Hull C.B., Yorkshire (East Riding), England

Ernest L Charlton 10 May 1906 Male Dock Labourer Married
Ethel Charlton 20 Oct 1908 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
1 more person who is officially closed
Emma Rose 22 Feb 1868 Female Retired Widowed
---------------------------------------------

Have you tried looking for her under Emily- my Gran was Emily but everyone called her Emma.

Maybe she was born a little later- was that the reason they waited?

We still need to know James' occupation on the marriage certificate.

Was Emma also the mother of George? Is his birth listed under Spencer or Rose?

George's birth is listed under Gill - Kathleen posted it 3rd July 17:19

Yorkshire BMD doesn't show his mother's ms.

His baptism (also posted by Kathleen) says Emma was his mother.

Eureka!!

Yorkshire Birth indexes for the years: 1865
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
SPENCER Emily A Sutton Hull SUT/16/459


Births Dec 1865 (>99%)
Spencer Emily Ann Sculcoates 9d 117


EDIT:
Ah - but that doesn't fit with the DOB for Emma Rose in 1939.

Maybe??


Emily Spencer
in the 1871 England Census

Name: Emily Spencer
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Emma Spencer
Gender: Female
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Southcoates
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Sculcoates
Sub-registration district: Drypool
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 253
Piece: 4780
Folio: 28
Page Number: 50
Household Members:
Name Age
Emma Spencer 37 - born Brocklesby, Lincs.
John Spencer 20 - son
Samuel Spencer 13
Henry Spencer 7
Mary Spencer 5
Emily Spencer 3
John Walker 40 - boarder


Not sure about that.
There seem to be several families in that area with similar names.
For instance, here's one in 1861 with a father James (!), and sons John and Samuel who seem to match the John and Samuel above -
BUT the mother's Ellen, born Derby:

Samuel Spencer

in the 1861 England Census
Name: Samuel Spencer
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: 1857
Relation: Son
Father's name: James Spencer
Mother's name: Ellen Spencer
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Sutton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
Town: Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Sculcoates
Sub-registration district: Sutton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 12
Piece: 3575
Folio: 29
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
James Spencer 41
Ellen Spencer 31 - Derby, Derbyshire
William Spencer 14
Thomas Spencer 12
John H Spencer 10
Sarah A Spencer 8
James Spencer 6
Samuel Spencer 4
Alfred Spencer 6/12


EDIT:


On the other hand, in 1851 it says she was born in Yorkshire:

Ellen Spencer
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Ellen Spencer
[Ellen Hogg]
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Tristram Hogg
Mother's name: Sarah Hogg
Gender: Female
Where born: Scrafton, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Kingston upon Hull St Mary
Town: Kingston upon Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Hull
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 148
Piece: 2362
Folio: 452
Page Number: 35
Household Members:
Name Age
Tristram Hogg 52
Sarah Hogg 46
Thomas Hogg 13
Ellen Spencer 22
William Spencer 4
Thomas Spencer 2
John F Spencer 6 Mo

Alfred in that 1861 census ? (in case it's the right family):

George Alfred Spencer
in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: George Alfred Spencer
Registration Year: 1860
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Sculcoates
Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 116


Deaths Dec 1861 (>99%)
Spencer George Alfred Sculcoates 9d 85

Welcome to the Community boards Sheila.


(I'll let Sheila know how to find her replies) :-)

She had a second child with Edward Gill:

name(s) Edward Gill
Birth year 1887
Birth date 20 Feb 1887
Baptism year 1887
Baptism date 18 Aug 1887
Baptism place Hull, St James
Denomination Anglican
Father's first name(s) Edward (Butcher)
Mother's first name(s) Emma
County Yorkshire (East Riding)
Archive East Riding Archives & Local Studies Service
Residence: 4 Edgar St.
--------------------------------------------

death for Edward:
First name(s) EDWARD
Last name GILL
Gender Male
Birth year 1887
Age 2
Death quarter 2
Death year 1889
District HULL
County Yorkshire
Volume 9D Page 190
-------------------------------------------------------------

Hull Daily Mail - Tuesday 11 June 1889

Child Scalded To Death in Hull
A shocking accident occurred a few days ago, which unhappily resulted in the death of a boy. It appears that Emma Gill, widow, residing at No 11 Victoria Terrace, Staniforth-place, left her home about 7am on the 6th inst to go to work at Newington, leaving her two sons, George (aged 4) and Edward,(aged 2), then asleep in bed...

It goes on to say that a Mrs Eggleston on the same terrace was occasionally popping in to check the boys. On one of thee visits she found that a pot of boiling water had been knocked over, scalding Edward quite badly.- He died a few days later in the Infirmiry.
-----------------------------------------------------

Just to add- this is definitely her as she was living at 11 Victoria Terrace in 1891 with Walter Rose.