Genealogy Chat

I have come across late baptisms before, and it did not involve being Jewish or any other nonconforming religion.

The ages have ranged anywhere from about age 10 when the child would have been starting work and the employer required confirmation that he/she had been baptised, to just before marriage when the minister or someone required confirmation.

The following reasons seem to be involved ......

the person did not know whether they had been baptised, so got baptised again "just in case"

the person had not been baptised when a child ........ maybe the parents didn't believe in it, lived in a place where there was no minister or easy access to a church, or maybe they just plain forgot when doing a bulk baptism of several children

I have not got a subscription to the Jewish database, so do not know how well it works.

Have you tried to find any information about his possible parents, or any siblings living in the same area - or are there too many Marks to make that feasible?

Hi Patchem

I have tried the Jewishgen database, but nothing came up. Its still just a rumour within the family

Regards Annie

Hi Alex

Have sent you a PM

Annie

If he or his family were jewish then eventually you do not want to be looking for baptisms in Church of England churches, but for any Jewish records, surely?

Hi Annie, pretty cool to find your post as i'm on exactly the same seach as you (Mark Marks was my gggg grandfather)! I can give you a bit of extra info (but not a lot as i think youve found pretty much the same set of documents i found). I think you could be right about the jewish thing - my mum was always given the understanding that her granddad had some jewish heritage although she was never completely sure. Having done a lot of searching on ancestry.co.uk i'm pretty confident that the 1813 baptism is him (too much of a coincidence for me that it was just 3 weeks before his wedding, also by a process of elimination as i cant find any other Mark Marks that it could relate to, for example it wouldnt fit for the guy who worked as hatter on St Giles High St). This would also fit with him being jewish as it was quite common for jews to convert to christianity back then and it seems very unusual that he would have waited until the age of 21 to get baptised otherwise (im also sure he wouldn't have been able to get married in a christian church if he hadnt converted). Very hard to know for sure though of course.

Interestingly the age given on the military record, which confused you, is actually corrected on the back of the document where it confirms that it had written his age in wrong originally by 5 years (changing his age at discharge from 20 to 25 which fits with his probable birth date of 1792).

Did you find anything at all about his wife Elizabeth Waltham? I know she was born in about 1789 in Southwark from the information in the census but i cant find a single possible birth record other than that.

Look forward to hearing from you!

Alex

no worries and thanks for the link to the old bailey. interesting read but thankfully not my Mark Marks as he was a Carver & Gilder

(apologies there folks, just had another look, yes, they follow each other)

All very sad...

Chris :)

Edits (the 1824 Stabbing, mentioning Mark Marks, not him below is it?, from that N.A. link posted earlier, just wondered seeing Mr Gregory, a straw hat manufacturer)

(Insured: Mark Marks, 30 High Street St Giles's, hatter
Date: 22 February 1831)

(he appears on below)

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def2-1289-18350511&div=t18350511-1289&terms=southwark#highlight

Hi, yes i think you are right. i have just bought a sub on the BNA and it is slightly confusing in the way it is written.

Thanks for clarifying

Annie

I think Chris may be wrong in linking Mark Marks with Ephraim Burford

Looking on FMP at the image of the report of the death of Mark Marks ................ Ephraim is mentioned next BUT I think they are separate entries, one does not refer to the other.

It is a description of inquests on suicides (reported in the Bristol Morning Post ........ a sentence or two on several suicides. No separation between them apart form the "period" at the end of the sentence and the fact that the next sentence begins with the name.



FMP provides access to the British Newspaper Archives, GR can also access those FMP records (if you have the right sub)

OR you can go to

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/


do the free search, then buy credits if you find ayhting interesting.

Thank you chris. can you please tell me which newspaper you read regarding the death of mark marks and mentioning Ephraim Burford as i always thought he was depressed after his friend was stabbed Mr Gregory, although this was in 1824!!

this was the paper i found regarding mark marks death

THE MORNING POST newspaper dated 12th April 1849:
Mark Marks aged 56, looking glass dealer, Blackman st, who hanged himself! It is supposed, from depression of spirits, produced by the death of an intimate friend and the badness of trade.

Annie

That Baptism gives, Henry occ. Auctioneer, 15 Great Newport Street...

(might relate below, given area)

Chris :)


15 March 1809 - London Courier and Evening Gazette - London, London

Bankrupts
Henry Marks, High-street. Si. Giles in The Fields, salesman. dealer


Edits (can see articles relating to Death of Mark, mentions of his friend Ephraim Burford, looks to be below, aged 40, he jumped off Vauxhall Bridge)

Deaths Jun 1849 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Burford Ephraim Westminster 1 341


England Deaths and Burials 1538-1991 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Mark
Last name Marks
Age at death 58
Birth year 1791
Burial year 1849
Burial date 17 Apr 1849
Parish Southwark, St George The Martyr
Address Blackman St
City London
County Surrey


First name(s) Ephriam
Last name Burford
Gender Male
Event year 1849
Birth year 1809
Age at death 40y
Burial year 1849
Burial date 16 Apr 1849
Burial place St. Mary At Lambeth, Surrey County, England
Residence 5 Bateman's Buildings
Place St. Mary At Lambeth


(others also named Mark Marks)

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/efb953d5-a712-4074-9505-688fbc8108f5

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/ff4877d2-5e1e-4839-abf7-8e6e34ba814f

Hi

Sylviaincanada - many thanks for looking for me and the info. I got his birth year 1791 from the Coroners Report in 1849 which said he was about 58 when he died, although his military records state he was 19 years when he entered into the army on 23rd oct 1815 and 20 years when discharged on 24th June 1817 (so thinking on that, i do need to take another look based on this army records) as im guessing they would be more accurate for his age? (i only just recently found his army records and never twigged the age)

Maddie & Malyon - Thank you, i didn't think of that, him naming his children could have been after his parents so this could be his baptism. so with that in mind, im guessing his not jewish?

many thanks again everyone

Annie

could it be mark was baptised in 1813 because he was to marry that year to Elizabeth

I have seen baptism's 30yrs after people were born

could this be mark in 1841

Mark Marks
England and Wales Census, 1841
Census
Event Date
1841
Event Place
St Giles In The Fields, Middlesex, England
Residence Note
Brownlow Street
Gender
Male
Age
50-54
Age (Original)
50
Occupation
Null
Birth Year (Estimated)
1787-1791
Birthplace
Middlesex
Registration District
St Giles & St George
Book Number
3
Parish
St Giles In The Fields
County
Middlesex
Page Number
64
Registration Number
HO107
Piece/Folio
673/36
Affiliate Record Type
Institution
Household
Role
Gender
Age
Birthplace
Mark Marks

M
50-54
Middlesex

the 1813 baptism may be worth considering as he named two of his children Henry and Mary Ann. Just a thought

?????????

the images are on ancestry's new Fold3, and I don't have a sub to that

UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920

Name: Private Mark Marks
Age: 20 <<<<<<<<<<
Birth Date: abt 1795 <<<<<<<<<
Birth Place: Bloomsbury Middlesex
Service Start Year: 1815
Service End Year: 1817
Regiment: 12th (Or PW) Royal Regt Of Lancers


UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925

Name: Mark Marks
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 25 <<<<<<<<<
Birth Year: abt 1792 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Place: Bloomsbury, London Middx
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 25 Jun 1817
Regiment: 12 Dragoons Sir II: Payne


are these the same person or 2 different Mark Marks???

looking at the 1841 Census for Mark Marks .................. the enumerator did round down the ages by 5

so Mark could have been born as early as 1787

Annie

where did you get the birth year of 1791 from?

If only from the 1841 Census, are you aware that ages of persons over the age of 15 were to be rounded DOWN to the nearest 5.

A few enumerators did not do that, but most did ................ one way to tell is if every adult has an age ending in either 5 or 0

What it does mean is that you have to widen your search to 1791 +/- 5 years.

Hi
Many thanks for taking the time in posting. yes, some of the posts relate to my Mark Marks, and some i know for sure do not.

I had wondered when i had found the Baptism in 1813 was my mark and shelved it as i have no way of proving it.

ive hit that brick wall and just dont know where else to look further regarding his parents. i appear to have found out most things of his adult life, but it just doesn't give up any of his childhood.

many thanks again for taking the time in helping me

Kind regards
Annie