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margaret
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2 Aug 2023 16:13 |
have 2 marriages not yet located on FSO- though mentioned as being on film.
1, 15/11/1890 at St Mark, Hulme, Manchester, UK. William Ramscar to Elizabeth Jane HIGGINS aged 18 father????? John Higgins- Watchman.
2. 25/12/1890 at Christ Church . Salford, UK James Shaw to Margaret Ann HIGGINS aged 21 father??? John Higgins, Watchman
Are these two females sisters ?, not both found on Census returns
any suggestions please- Thank you
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ErikaH
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2 Aug 2023 16:23 |
Name Elizabeth Jane Higgins Gender Female Marriage Age 18 Event Type Marriage Birth Year abt 1872 Marriage Date 15 Nov 1890 Marriage Place Hulme, St Mark, Manchester, England Father John Higgins Spouse William Lawrence Ramocan Reference Number M320/5/2/5 Archive Roll 814
One of the witnesses was Edward Higgins
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census 10, Joule Street, Salford, Lancashire, England John Higgins Head Married Male 47 1834 Mechanic (undef) Ireland Ellen Higgins Wife Married Female 49 1832 - Ireland James Higgins Son Single Male 22 1859 Mechanic (undef) Manchester, Lancashire, England Edward Higgins Son Single Male 19 1862 Roller coverer (ctn) Manchester, Lancashire, England John Higgins Son Single Male 15 1866 Assistant to oilcloth printer (printer) Manchester, Lancashire, England Mary Ann Higgins Daughter Single Female 11 1870 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England Elizabeth Higgins Daughter Single Female 8 1873 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England
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ErikaH
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2 Aug 2023 16:28 |
Name James Shaw Gender Male Marriage Age 21 Event Type Marriage Birth Year abt 1869 Marriage Date 25 Dec 1890 Marriage Place Salford, Christchurch, Lancashire, England Father Samuel Shaw Spouse Margaret Ann Higgins......address, 23, Lambert Street
Neither woman witnessed the marriage of the other.
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ErikaH
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3 Aug 2023 11:07 |
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census 8, Half Street, Salford, Lancashire, England James Shaw Head Married Male 31 1870 General labourer Salford, Lancashire, England Margaret A Shaw Wife Married Female 31 1870 - Manchester, Lancashire, England Elizabeth J Shaw Daughter Single Female 0 1901 - Salford, Lancashire, England
SHAW, ELIZABETH JANE HIGGINS GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 120
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ErikaH
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3 Aug 2023 11:17 |
Name John Higgins Gender Male Marital Status Single Marriage Date 03 Aug 1867 Marriage Place Longford, Ireland Father Francis Higgins Spouse Ellen Mccormick FHL Film Number 101515 Reference ID Page 198 line 10
HIGGINS, ELIZABETH JANE MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 96
1891 census Name John Higgins Gender Male Age 59 Relationship Head Birth Year 1832 Birth Place Ireland Civil parish Salford Ecclesiastical parish St Philip Residence Place Salford, Lancashire, England Registration district Salford Sub registration district Regent Road ED, Institution or Vessel 6 Neighbors View others on page Piece 3220 Folio 23 Household Members (Name) Age Relationship John Higgins 59 Head Ellen Higgins 59 Wife
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ArgyllGran
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3 Aug 2023 17:53 |
I'm not sure if that's the right family for Elizabeth -
Her father is a watchman in 1890. But the man in the census is a "calico printer [something beginning with M] tenter" in 1871, a mechanic in 1881 and at son Edward's marriage in 1884, and an iron turner in 1891.
Not that I've found a more convincing family!
Can't see a Margaret Ann with father John who's a watchman either.
I suggest that Margaret and Elizabeth are not sisters. As they married in the same year, I would have expected them to have been married in the same church if they were sisters.
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ErikaH
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4 Aug 2023 10:52 |
How did you come to be looking at these records?
Which of the people concerned is your PROVEN line?
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nameslessone
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4 Aug 2023 14:02 |
You don’t need to be related to research someone from the past. There could be a myriad of reasons.
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ErikaH
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4 Aug 2023 16:12 |
There still needs to be some sort of ‘trail’, otherwise it's total nonsense
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Maddie
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5 Aug 2023 14:25 |
from lancashire on line parish clerks
Marriage: 15 Nov 1890 St Mark, Hulme, Lancashire, England William Lawrence Ramscar - 26, Sheet-Maker, Bachelor, 5 Owen Street Elizabeth Jane Higgins - 18, Machinist, Spinster, 5 Owen Street Groom's Father: James Holt Ramscar, Engineer Bride's Father: John Higgins, Watchman Witness: Edward Higgins; Emily Elvina Reynolds Married by Banns by: C. S. Rowland Curate Register: Marriages 1883 - 1891, Page 239, Entry 478 Source: LDS Film 2357303
Marriage: 25 Dec 1890 Christ Church, Salford, Lancashire, England James Shaw - 21, Carter, Bachelor, 5 Lambert Street Margaret Ann Higgins - 21, Weaver, Spinster, 23 Lambert Street Groom's Father: Samuel Shaw, Brick Setter Bride's Father: John Higgins, Watchman Witness: Henry Beasley; Annie Shaw, (X) Married by Banns by: William Cole Register: Marriages 1888 - 1892, Page 125, Entry 250 Source: LDS Film 1786368
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Maddie
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5 Aug 2023 14:59 |
Elizabeth Jane ????? Country England Last name Higgins Volume 8D Birth quarter 2 Page 96 Birth year 1873 Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006 Mother's maiden name McCormick Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records District Salford Subcategory Civil Births County Lancashire
1891 1891 England Census View image View record Record details Name John Higgins Gender Male Age 59 Relationship Head Birth Year 1832 Spouse Ellen Higgins Birth Place Ireland Civil parish Salford Ecclesiastical parish St Philip Residence Place Salford, Lancashire, England Registration district Salford Sub registration district Regent Road ED, Institution or Vessel 6 Neighbors View others on page Piece 3220 Folio 23 Household membersName Age John Higgins 59 Ellen Higgins 59
living next door to william and elizabeth j ramscar
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ArgyllGran
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5 Aug 2023 16:59 |
That birth and 1891 already posted .
Living next door to Ramscars is a good point. But that John Higgins is an iron turner in 1891, not a watchman as in 1890.
He was a mechanic in 1881 and 1884, and a "calico printer [something beginning with M] tenter" in 1871.
It's just the occupation which seems to be the stumbling block.
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Maddie
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6 Aug 2023 10:47 |
maybe he changed jobs
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ErikaH
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6 Aug 2023 11:55 |
Feedback from Margaret needed....................
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margaret
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12 Aug 2023 22:30 |
Thank you all for these replies. On a couple of family trees the father is given a different death date. John Higgins seems to have been born in Cork, and he and his brother arrived as 'teenagers' in Salford , a city before Manchester ! The name is not uncommon. I have possible 13 children for this couple, but might be missing a couple . Starting with James born in 1859 and the last one Mary Ann 1879, This would make the mother 47, Not impossible but likely the child to be a grandchild? registered as hers. I have not confirmed the Burial of John Higgins , but seems likely to be 1904 at a RC burial Manchester general cemetery - non conformists. The watchman occupational shown on both girls in the same year is perhaps a temp job- In 1890 census he is an Iron turner.- all engineering trades.
There is a report of a fracas in 1881 =
1881 791: VIOLENT ATTACK ON BAILIFFS AT SALFORD. John Higgins, mechanic, 10, Joule-street, Ordsall-lane, Salford, was charged with assaulting Edward H. Urquhart, 8, Bangor-street, Broughton, and John Patterson, bailiffs of the Salford County Court, whilst in the execution of their duty. ? Mr. W. G. Rawes, defended the prisoner.
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ArgyllGran
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13 Aug 2023 12:21 |
You say, "I have possible 13 children for this couple".
Which couple?
ADDED: Ah, I see - it's the Higgins/McCormick couple.
HIGGINS, MARY ANN mmn MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 200
HIGGINS, JOHN MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 214
HIGGINS, DOMNICK MCCARTHY MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 457
HIGGINS, WILLIAM MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 187
HIGGINS, ELIZABETH JANE MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 96
HIGGINS, HARRIET MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 205
HIGGINS, MICHAEL MCCORMACK GRO Reference: 1865 S Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH UNION Volume 07A Page 89
HIGGINS, MARY MCCORMACK GRO Reference: 1863 M Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH UNION Volume 07A Page 108
HIGGINS, CATHERINE MCCORMICK GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 627
These are the only Higgins/McCormick (or alternative spelling) births which I can see in 1859-79, and without having tried to check with censuses, etc, I'm pretty sure they're not all the same family.
Dominick and Harriet are certainly not siblings.
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ErikaH
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15 Aug 2023 10:58 |
The family on the 1881 census posted on 2nd August is clearly that of the man to whom the newspaper article refers................although it would be helpful to know your connection............if there is one!
Don't rely on other trees for info..............do your own careful research.
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nameslessone
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15 Aug 2023 11:41 |
The mechanic could easily be the iron turner as this was done on a machine and the term mechanic was used for someone that used a machine.
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ArgyllGran
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15 Aug 2023 11:48 |
Yes, I'm sure the iron turner and the mechanic are the same man. But watchman in 1890, when he's still an iron turner in 1891?
However, there's always human error, possible face-saving, and informant's knowledge to take into account, so who knows?!
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ArgyllGran
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19 Aug 2023 12:13 |
Idly browsing around the Higgins/McCormick family -
An 1867 marriage was posted earlier, for John Higgins and Ellen McCormick, in Ireland.
But the mechanic/iron turner's family are on the 1861 census in Chorlton, with daughter Catherine born 1860 in Hulme (Chorlton birth already posted) and son James, apparently born Hulme 1859:
John Higgins in the 1861 England Census Name John Higgins Gender Male Age 30 Relation Head Estimated Birth Year 1831 Spouse's Name Ellen Higgins Where born Ireland Civil parish Hulme Ecclesiastical parish St George County/Island Lancashire Country England Registration district Chorlton Sub-registration district Hulme ED, institution, or vessel 37 Neighbors Household schedule number 332 Piece 2894 Folio 98 Page number 49 Household Members (Name) Age Relationship John Higgins 30 Head - mechanic driller, Ireland Ellen Higgins 9 Wife - Ireland James Higgins 2 Son - Hulme, Lancs Catharine Higgins 1 Daughter - Hulme
Therefore I think this is the correct marriage for John and Ellen:
Marriages Sep 1853 (>99%) HIGGINS John Chorlton 8c 609 McCORMICK Ellen Chorlton 8c 609
Possible birth of James, with mmn misheard, mis-spelled , or mistranscribed???
HIGGINS, JAMES mmn MCCONN GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 553
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