Genealogy Chat

eek - I've bought it I'll be able to transcribe on my journey home now

oooh! I wonder if it will say any more???!! When you see some of the other assumptions made so far (TMM's parents married at Leeds, Stamps put on by Ann, even though she wasn't the only daughter etc....you begin to wonder!) It's very annoying that in 1841 TMM had a son called William, aged 4 months on the census. I rushed to bath BMD because they have mum's maiden names transcribed from 1837! But he wasn't registered!!!! (You would have thought the post master would have done so???) Merry

okay - quick rough transcription ..... 'I give everything I've got to my daughter Ann Musgrave who was born roughly about 9th November 1822 in ???? Cornwall' only other names are two executors - first name I cant read but he's the Chief Clerk at the post office and the second one is George Avery ??? of Devonport, Surveyor of the Bath Post Office witnesses are Edward Turner - also something to do with Post Office and CHarles Tucker of Oxford Terrace Bath

I wonder could the connection be Ann's mothers family unless we're 100% certain it was mary who wrote the letters Perhaps Mary disappears after 1841 as he threw her out over the whole stamp thing. Of course she could just marry and move out but my version is much more dramatic Z

I suppose giving Ann's details in that way, saved him mentioning she was illegitimate? I saw the postmaster's name earlier......could it be Mr Rich? There's a painting of TMM here (!!): http://www.bathpostalmuseum.org/musgrave.html Merry

LOL Zoe! There are two Mary Musgrave deaths in bath between 1841 and 1851, though I'm aware there is another couple George and Sarah Musgrave (shoemaker) in the Bath area, but otherwise, these deaths could be TMM's wife and daughter (maybe he murdered them over the stamps thing!! lol) Merry

yeah - I'd say its Rich cant make out first name but his middle name looks something like Devridge

Wouldn't it be funny if somewhere in someone's attic in Peckham lies the letter that was inside the envelope with the penny black on it?! ''Dear Second-cousin-once-removed-on-my-mother's-side Charlotte, Do you like the decoration on the envelope in which this letter was sent to you? Papa says the little sticky square is going to be all the rage in the future. You have to buy one and then afix it to your letter before you have it mailed. Persoanlly, I'm not sure about it - black is not much fun! How are your parents? Especially my blood relative, your mother?? We are all very well here, except Papa is very angry about me taking the sticky squares (called stamps) so I have told him the servant, Ann Edwards (who he sometimes seems to prefer over his own children) took them. Hopefully she will be dismissed forthwith! I hope so, actually, because Papa says he might have to murder whoever really took them! My Cordial Regards Mary Musgrave'' Merry

But Laura.....Zoe wants drama!!! Merry

Okay - back to basics here.. Thomas Moore Musgrave could have married anywhere in the world, at any time. In 1841 he is already in his 60s, has children born from 1826 when he was already 50-ish, has a son a few months old (definitely his son? or is this Mary's son?). We know he has a liking for the ladies (result - Ann - born when TMM is in his 40s). WE dont KNOW that Mary, b 1806, is his wife - she could be his daughter! Thomas was in Ireland in 1806, in Lisbon in 1816 and in Falmouth in 1821. The mind boggles, there could be children and mothers all over the world! OC

LOL!!! And here we are after three pages, still no nearer to the truth about Mr and Mrs Colyer! They MUST have known someone in the Musgrave family - the letter couldn't have been sent to just anyone! Merry

All absolutely right of couse! Maybe James Colyer was just a friend who he had remained in touch with since childhood, or someone who he had work connections with or 101 other things.....Maybe he covered for the fact that the stamps should not have been used, by blaming a child (well.....a person who could have been a child!) when he actually sent the letter himself. I've seen the envelope! Hang on....I'll get the web address.....we can analyse the bit of handwriting! LOL Merry

http://www.gbstamps(.)com/gbcc/gbcc_bath_postal_mus.html The envelope is on the left a way down (you can see the end of the name Colyer and Peckham!) Merry

I will nudge this to top in case anyone named colyer comes on the boards.

In 1840, the then Postmaster of Bath, Thomas Moore Musgrave, received supplies of the new Penny Black on May 1st — five days ahead of the stamp’s official first day of use. Musgrave’s daughter, Anne, (so legend has it) was aware of the arrival of these novelties and, a day later, having decided to write some letters to a few friends, thought it might be fun to attach to each of them one of these new stamps. Cover mailed from Bath on May 2, 1840, showing Bath date stamp and London arrival cancelation Musgrave did not dare cancel the stamps in Bath (thought he did apply a date stamp, as shown in the image on the left), but a copy has survived with the stamp cancelled on arrival in London with a tombstone post-paid cancellation. For many years this May 2nd cancel was regarded as the first known usage of the Penny Black, and when it came up for auction in 1990, the Museum, keenly desirous of returning it to its former home, succeeded in arranging financing for a purchase up to £16,000. But that figure turned out to be not nearly enough as a Far Eastern bidder shattered the Museum’s dreams of bringing the cover back “home” when he got the historic piece for £55,000. (Subsequently, a single example of a Penny Black posted on May 1st has come to light making it now the stamp’s first recorded usage.)

OK, call me picky - but how did she get hold of the stamps? Did TMM just leave them lying around the house? Surely they would have been delivered to the Post Office, not his home? And, wouldnt you have thought that TMM would have said - no, you cant post them yet, I'll get into trouble if you do? OC

I think he sent the letters himself! Then realised he shouldn't have, so blamed someone else - a woman lol UPDATE - There were other letters sent, weren't there??? I wonder if the other one(s) survived and they were sent by the daughter? (and if so, which dau??) Merry

The more I think about this, the more I wonder... Where, exactly, did the information come from that it was Ann who did this? Under what circumstances was this revealed, and to whom? How did the Postal Museum get to hear of this? Having had some (limited) experience of Official Websites, they tend to be a mixture of fact, conjecture and sheer fantasy. I have looked for a marriage and a death of Ann but cant find one - wonder if SHE left a Will? And where oh where, is James Colyer on census night, 1841??? OC

re your Official Websites comment......I agree!! and in this case there is even more fabrication than usual! Having decided TMM's parents married in Leeds, one site states he was born in Leeds too, but was baptised in London, yet on the census he says (I bet correctly) that he was born in London! Then they have only given him two children......Ann and Charles....both born Musgrave, according to the site and both with mum....you guessed it....Ann Edwards! They have written, ''Ann Edwards married TMM'' (no date or place!).....Ummmm, she did???? Of course, she may have done, but where's the proof???? And I still think he wrote the letters and posted them, until someone shows me otherwise! (maybe the other letters did survive?) Merry

Merry I agree with you - he wrote the letters himself. Other people have just ASSUMED that it wouldnt have been him because he was Important, so had a look round to see who to blame in the household...oh, there's Ann, his illegitimate daughter, it must have been her! I had a good old look round for a marriage twixt TMM and Ann Edwards, but couldnt find one - as you say, where's the proof? Unless they married in Ulan Bator, then I cant find it! Incidentally, and it doesnt help, but I think Ann was from Constantine, which is between Helston and Falmouth and very handy for the Falmouth Packet, which was the mail boat in those days. TMM's mate Francis Pender was a big smell in Constantine, always arguing about the Poor Rate. So its back to the Colyers, who I am beginning to think were friends/business acquaintances of TMM and he just wanted to do a bit of showing off. Isnt it wonderful how these worthy people manage to obscure all sorts of goings-on and emerge into the 21st century whiter than white! OC