Genealogy Chat

* Brenda * Its nice when you see familar places on the site and can relate to them. Is it/was it a pub? Do you know if its still there? When were your ancestors there? I'm wondering if Mary Ann Winter was there only to give birth to her daughter, away from family, as no father was given on the birth certificate. Would love to hear from you Regards Carley

Hi Carly Your ancestors must have known mine, I reckon, as mine were living at Anchor, Titchfield too! No Winters orSmiths that I've come across, though.

Hi Robin Looks like its just you and me.................... The birth certificates came today for Elizabeth and Emily, heres goes: ELIZABETH WINTER BORN 29TH OCT 1846, ANCHOR, TITCHFIELD, COUNTY OF SOUTHAMPTON. MOTHER MARY ANN WINTER, SAME ADDRESS, NO MENTION OF FATHER! EMILY JANE SMITH BORN 23RD NOV 1861, TITCHERS COURT, GOSPORT, COUNTY OF SOUTHAMPTON. FATHER WILLIAM SMITH A GREENWICH OUTPENSIONER. MOTHER MARY ANN SMITH FORMERLY WINTER, SAME ADDRESS. Have to find a marriage (if there was one) between Mary Ann and William. Will have a look tomorow. Let me know what you think. Regards Carley

the phantom nudger seems to have pushed the thread up. Which reminds me that I didn't get anywhere much with Ellen Reed. There's a good candidate in 1891 as a servant, nothing to go on except age and location Didn't see anything earlier though. Somebody else have a look?

wouldn't worry about the birthplace, as Stubbington was in Titchfield parish. What is odd is that Elizabeth is 15 in 1861, maybe 14 really, and has no younger siblings listed, but Emily is on the way. The long gap would tend to suggest two different fathers. Or was William Smith spending a long time at sea (in his 50s?)? Have you got Emily's birth cert, or has your contact got it? Is that where you got Mary Ann's former name Winter? The wording on that is important, especially if the marriage to William Smith doesn't turn up It's also a bit odd that 'William Winter, labourer' isn't described as deceased on Elizabeth's marriage cert. She was only 19, maybe 17 really, and marrying in church in her home parish, Forton in Gosport. Who walked up the aisle with her and gave her away, and was he introduced as William Winter?

* Jacqui * Thanks for that, I will add it to my shopping list! All the best Carley

Hi Carly Just been reading this through. I'd say that Elizabeth was actually born a Winter. Her mother could have been maried before or she could have been born out of wedlock. How about this birth ref? Births Dec 1846 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Winter Elizabeth Fareham 7 88 Jacqui

* Yvonne * Thanks, I didn't realise they could do that! * Robin * Good to hear from you again. There's something strange about this family, if we go one generation back, Mary Ann Winter was Elizabths mother who married William Smith, or I presumed they married as Mary Ann is listed as Williams wife in the 1861 cencus and as Mary Ann Smith in the 1871 census, also Mary Anns place of birth varies from Titchfield to Stubbington, so even that varies!!! I havn't managed to find a marriage ref for them yet either!

if Mary Ann married twice, she should be a widow on the 2nd marriage cert, and Smith late Winter formerly Whatever on the birth cert of any kids she had later your original message said Elizabeth's mother was Mary Winter, but I've lost track of where that came from but I'm thinking maybe Elizabeth was born before her mother married. Come the wedding, she called herself Winter because she considered that her 'real' name, and then made her father's surname the same as her own -- not uncommon

The certificates arrived at last.....................HURRAH! > ARTHUR LAMING married ELLEN REED, Nov 12 1892 in Alverstoke, Southampton County. > ARTHUR AGED 18, ELLEN 23, both living in Alverstoke. > ARTHUR'S father WILLIAM LAMING, leading man of stores Royal Clarence Yard. > ELLEN'S father RICHARD REED, labourer. > Witnessed by RICHARD REED & ANNIE REED. Can anyone tell me anymore about Ellen and her family please? and here's the other one...................... > WILLIAM CHARLES LAMING married ELIZABETH WINTER. May 1st 1864, Church of St Johns, Forton, Southampton County. > WILLIAM AGED 27, ELIZABETH 19, both living in Forton. > WILLIAM'S father WILLIAM LAMING, labourer. > ELIZABETH'S father WILLIAM WINTER, labourer. > Witnessed by George Hather & Martha Laming (William Charles's sister) Not what I was expecting! ! ?? What can you super slueths dig up about Elizabeths family? Did her father die, then her mother, MARY ANN remarry a SMITH?

* Robin * Thanks I have emailed you my address. Regarding Elizabeths birth info, is it Vol 7 page 19? * Jess* I want to order the certs today but am on an unsecured connection so will have to wait till tomorrow afternoon. A BIG THANK YOU AGAIN TO ALL OF YOU X Carley X

FreeBMD has a possible: Births 1847 Apr-Jun Smith Elizabeth Alverstoke 7 19 that would make her 13-14 on census night 1861, 23-24 1871, probably 31 when she died, so it's about average on the young side if that is her marriage, especially if it wasn't urgent, but not too young. They do say that some marriages are only half-indexed, but if this turns out to be one it's the first I've actually come across. But there's a lot of Elizabeth Smiths, so it would be easy to drop one can send you an image if you send me a message with your email address, GR's messaging doesn't do attachments

We wait until you get the certificates... That Elizabeth could well have married and had first child pre 1866, (when she would have been 20/21) kind of blows the baptism away though UNLESS she was baptised when she was 4.(unless my maths is completely up the pole)

* Robin * Thanks for putting me straight with the house number!!! I will order that (1/2) marraige certificate when I get home, thats definitely him. Do you have an image of the 1861 census? Would it be possible to send it too me please? Thank you for adding your knowledge. * Jess * Hopefully this certificate Robin has found will be a foot in the right direction, keeping fingers crossed. Where do we go from here?

1861 RG9/648/40 page 26 Elizth Smith 15 Titchfield, Hampshire, England Daughter Alverstoke Hampshire Mary Ann Smith 39 Titchfield, Hampshire, England Wife Alverstoke Hampshire Wm Smith 64 London, England Head Alverstoke Hampshire Mary Ann matches the 1871 mother-in-law (age 49)

There is o sighn of the child,,her birth or the marriage 1860something, when the bride would have been 15 at the most! the whole thing just doesn't hang together!

(re-read the thread and I realise now why there's no sign of the 1866 child in 1871) Death, GRO, Elizabeth Laming 1st qr 1879 age 30 (1871 census says 24) got half a marriage: 1864 Apr-Jun Laming William Charles Alverstoke 2b 757 can't see Elizabeth/Eliza/Jane Smith as the other half though.

Have we actually found one thing that Carly wanted us to find? Every single thing seems to be a bit 'off the mark' Jess x

according to Genuki, Stubbington was in Titchfield parish. LDS shows churches in the parish at Titchfield, Sarisbury and Crofton (but hasn't even got films for Crofton)

1871 census at RG10/1149/29 page 51, mistranscribed Lanning, spelt Stubington No sign of that 1866 child though Address is Holly Street Alverstoke. No house number -- 232 is the enumerator's schedule number