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Speaking ill of the dead

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

maggiewinchester

maggiewinchester Report 6 Oct 2012 01:24

Susan, read more of what this person ('truthseeker') has blogged - he's a wee bit of a self- opinionated bigot.

Susan10146857

Susan10146857 Report 6 Oct 2012 00:59

I must lead a very sheltered life......I never knew that......


http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=33514

Or this........

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=57477

maggiewinchester

maggiewinchester Report 6 Oct 2012 00:35

That is all so creepy, Susan.

Well done Paul and Ian!

Sharron

Sharron Report 6 Oct 2012 00:31

Edward Heath too?

Susan10146857

Susan10146857 Report 6 Oct 2012 00:11

From his autobiography


http://timesopinion.tumblr.com/post/32804536645/jimmy-saviles-affections-laid-bare-by-jimmy-savile#



More.......

http://www.whale.to/c/jimmy_saville.html


And from Have I got news for you

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rogerb/jokes/HIGNFY.txt Apparently a hoax transcript.


JoyBoroAngel

JoyBoroAngel Report 5 Oct 2012 11:23

SUE
i ran a anti bulling clinic at our school 15 years ago it worked very well

but the same school used to threaten me with the sack every week
for taking the girls for the morning after pill and to the family planning clinic

but i still took them

and child line backed me all the way :-D

SueMaid

SueMaid Report 5 Oct 2012 10:25

Spot on Hazel. It angers me that vulnerable young children and teenagers are so often the targets of these dreadful predators - mostly because they have no one to truly care for them.

There seems to be some schemes in schools here in Australia that give children the confidence to stand up to bullies. Perhaps that should be widened to include any one - child or adult - that makes them feel uncomfortable.

hazel

hazel Report 5 Oct 2012 10:04

apart from other obvious closure, how can we learn from these revelations?how can young vulnerable children today in homes or fostered ,be mentored, allowing them to grow up as undamaged adults.approved schools and the damage done, could lead to decisions that can lay the pathway to the rest of your life.even in our "civilised" society there are lost children ,destined to become a prison statistic, i don't believe it is down to finances either, but mentoring by positive focused adults

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 4 Oct 2012 23:36

What is not in doubt is that the GIRLS need help, even now.



Native peoples were sent to missionary schools in both Canada and the US. These schools were run by members of every religion ............. Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Baptist


and EVERY single religion ran schools where the kids were seriously abused.

The "logic" was that the so-called Indians (preferred term now is First Nations) were savages, and the schools were there to civilize them. It was considered that they were not intelligent, and that nothing more could be expected of them than to be servants.

This attitude basically prevailed from the late 1800s right through to the 1960s and 1970s. In fact, the last missionary school was closed in Canada in about 1990.


Physical abuse was rampant .............. beatings every day, by the priests, the nuns AND the lay workers. There were many children who were beaten to death, and their bodies buried somewhere.

Sexual abuse was also extremely common ................ by both men and women on boys and girls.



For the last 20 years Canada has been facing up to the results of all this ...........

First, generations of children who were taken away from their native environments, and thus never learnt their cultures, but more importantly did not learn how to be parents.

Second, generations of adults who drank to kill the pain, and who could not form relationships.

Third, generations of adults who had no expectations of themselves, because they had always been told how stupid they were.


Finally, it has been accepted that what happened was wrong .............

....... the Federal Government has issued an official apology to all First Nations who attended missionary schools for the treatment they received, AND a huge amount of money has been provided to be given to all survivors of the schools.

The apology and some of the money also applies to descendants of survivors who have died.


This apology and the money will not cure all ills ................ but it is going a long way to ease the pain for those survivors.


First, they now know they were not alone, there were other victims

Second, they now know that their sufferings have been acknowledged to be wrong.



Maybe this is what the victims of JS need ............. to know that they were not alone, that it was not their fault, and to have their sufferings acknowledged by those who ignored, or worse, hid, what he was doing.




For those who wonder ....... the US is still quite a ways behind Canada in this ........ they still promote how good the missionary schools were, without mention of the problems.

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 4 Oct 2012 23:06

Can only say that JS to me always looked to be a bit creepy. I was aware through the media that he did very good charity works but I never warmed to him.

To see these allegations now arising doesn't really surprise me but I never knew the man or anyone who did so really cant judge.

If he did what is alleged then its very sad for his victims. without going into details from what my family knew within the family theres disbelief and then damage limitations done to keep it hidden. No thought given at the time for the victim/s

~Lynda~

~Lynda~ Report 4 Oct 2012 22:54

Sylvia, you are spot on, the 60's are a world away, I think our parents thought teachers were on a higher level, than they were, and if they said something, then that was it. Had you have said something happened that was untoward, parents probably would have said don't be daft, they wouldn't do that.

It was probably the same with so called celebrities, the girl from the approved school who told what JS had done to her, she was told she was a filthy liar, after all he "helped" the school, the school let a man take girls out in his car for a ride, there was no vetting then, so nobody thought anything of it, nobody thought, why would a man want to take 14 year old girls out for a ride.in his car. Times have changed thank goodness.

I'm not so sure about Esther Rantzen, she isn't someone I warm to, but, again going back, was she like a lot of others, thought if she did say something, nobody would believe her, and if she actually hadn't seen anything what would she tell? I'm certainly not saying that Esther Rantzen shouldn't of spoken out, but I'm just giving her the benefit of the doubt, for the times we lived in, and how she could of done anything about it?



I've listened to some interviews with people who knew JS today, a lot of them thought he was Asexual, he was a loner, and only went to functions for a while then left, nobody seemed to really know him.
I saw the Louis Theroux interview with him a few years back, and he came across as being very odd. I did think what he said to defend Gary Glitter said a lot about him.

I know he isn't alive to defend himself, and some people may say that no more should be done about him, I'm not one of those people, I know he can't be prosecuted, but if more people come forward, or an incident can be proved, then at least those girls who say they were abused can get closure then all should be done to give them that.

Hayley   Empress of Drama

Hayley Empress of Drama Report 4 Oct 2012 21:59

Here here Hazel, how the women could keep an open secret and then go and set up Child line, what a bloody hypercite " don't suffer abuse only if its at the hands of a celebraty" I agree just who was she protecting? her own career.

SylviaInCanada

SylviaInCanada Report 4 Oct 2012 20:44

I was in high school in the 50s, we all knew that one of the masters liked the younger girls (ie, under 15).

He sat beside every girl in his classes at least once, and felt under her skirt.

Many of us also knew that later he had a relationship with a 13 year old ............. they used to disappear into one of the stock rooms, or out in his car, at lunch time.

We really could not understand why, or how, she did what she did ............... most of us thought he was a creep, and avoided him.

In fact, he is the reason that I did not follow my first love in academics, and became a scientist instead. I could not stand the thought of having him for 2 years in the 6th Form


Problem was ......... who did we tell?


No-one, literally no-one, would have believed us in those days.

Teachers were equivalent to priests ................. they were in charge, and most of our parents considered them almost as little "gods", in the sense that they could do no wrong.

If we had told our parents, we'd have been told that we were making up a story, and Mr xxxxx would never do anything like that. He was, after all, educated!


Similarly, if we, as 15/16 year olds, had gone to another member of staff and told them what we had seen, we would have been told we were lying ............. and possibly punished with detention or suspension.


I'm not surprised to hear about the allegations re Jimmy Saville .............. but remember, we are all remembering what we felt about him in hindsight!


Equally, I am not surprised that girls who were abused by him told no-one ............. they just would not have been believed!


Those of you who are younger and born after, say, the 1960s, will have no real idea of how things really were until feminism became popular in the 1960s, and women realised that they really did have a voice.

and even then, those poor girls were faced with accusing someone who was a HUGE star. THEY themselves would be accused of having caused whatever he did. Plus the huge amount of money he had, and the powerful people he knew, would have ensured that the accusations went nowhere.


It's pointless to say now that the girls should have told, and should not have kept silent.


That is not what we did in those days!





To go back to the original question ..................... to say nothing ill about a dead person was a church thing. Ordered by the priests for centuries.

OH's mother could be pretty unpleasant to many people, and was absolutely horrid to me.

At her funeral (which I did not attend as it was in the UK), many people attended who had known her in public life .............. and several made comments to OH and his sister re problems.

This year, he attended another relative's funeral, and many of the relations at that made worse comments to him about his mother, even though it was almost 20 years later.

Thing was .................. he agreed with what they all said!



sylvia

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 4 Oct 2012 20:44

Not that I've ever met Kay lol.

When I say 'saints and sinners' it's obviously never clear cut like that, nor is lying by omission lol.

Kay????

Kay???? Report 4 Oct 2012 20:25

would a child be excluded in this or whats good for one is good for another apply regardless of age.?



Saints are there any Rose... ;-) :-D......


Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 4 Oct 2012 20:08

I don't agree John you can't ignore what people have done in this life, otherwise the logical conclusion to that is that the funerals of 'saints and sinners' are 'equal'... say only nice things about both,
( Hitler was a vegetarian and liked dogs and art....doesn't quite wash does it?).

A death, a funeral, might be the right time for people to move on and let go of the petty irritations or dislike that they have felt for the deceased or even to forgive more substantial hurts. But to pretend these things never happened, that someone was NOT what they were, and have to live with the knowledge that 'they too' have lied by omission...I don't think that is right.

I don't believe lying by omission is right, when you do that you are being dishonourable to others and to yourself ( and if we're talking religion, perhaps to God also?).

maggiewinchester

maggiewinchester Report 4 Oct 2012 18:45

The book isn't closed for those he groomed / abused!
Don't they have any rights?

JustJohn

JustJohn Report 4 Oct 2012 11:33

Some appear to be attracted to children in the wrong way. Hopefully we don't understand why, but it happens.

I would have been on my guard with JS, I must admit. But would also have been mesmerised by his personality and charisma. And we would have to unravel rumours about a lot of people (some in public eye) and alter their obituaries. JS will not be alone.

No, death is death. End of this life, and any judgment mainly reserved for next life. Funerals should include good things about life of departed. Wakes should avoid criticism. If you didn't like the departed and he/she is not close family, don't go. If close family, go but shut up.

At least JS had a wonderful send off. People came from all over the world to pay their respects. Some from showbusines, but many he had helped. And I mean that in a positive way.

Funerals shoud be a celebration of a life. They should be uplifting. And, in most cases, they should close the book.

hazel

hazel Report 4 Oct 2012 11:08

well, one childs word against a massive "celebrity" seems like no contest to me. the only thing is, that perhaps now , the "house of cards" or "can of worms" will gain momentum, and other predators from childrens "homes" and similar will be exposed.there are a number of messages on the web from years ago, stating about the abuse at duncroft.not only the chemical cosh,but "visitors" including professional psychiatric staff.esther rantzen? well, she said herself it was an open secret, she kept quiet, why? protecting herself?

Penny

Penny Report 4 Oct 2012 07:28

Stoke Mandeville hospital was thronging with TV reporters yesterday, wanting someone to dish the dirt.

One theory is, that if his wrong doings were aired earlier then people would cease supporting Stoke madeville - a member of hospital staff told me that.