General Chat

No idea what 'Britishness' is even supposed to be.

I am English.....!

:-D :-D

Having Welsh and Scottish blood in me from my parents and yet born in England I have no real choice other than to say I'm British !!

I have always said that I was like a mongrel, with English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish blood coursing through my veins. Even further back - French blood.

We are none of us pure. :-S

Well, my husband family has Irish blood so everything is covered full Union Jack !

Have a random look at the UK census for 1891 1901 1911 for any of our big cities. An awful lot of people would have been on Amber Rudd's hit list. My close rellies inc France, Ireland, Sweden, Scotland, France, Isle of Man, Riga, Pakistan as well as England.

And yet few people don't have some of these among their ancestors. They are the people who brought us through ww2, defeated Hitlerism and added no end to our scientific and cultural life.

Whatever "Britishness" might be it is not brexit.
It is like trying to find Shrodinger's Cat.

"very few people, including the majority of racists, like being called racist. You have to be really very racist not to mind the label. Racist voters, while they often like racist policies and racist politicians, don’t, in general, like them to actually call themselves racist. They’re not comfortable with it being openly proclaimed. For now. Things haven’t got that bad.

I think maybe lots of racists don’t think they’re racist. I don’t think I’m racist, so maybe I’m racist. Maybe everyone is, to some extent. Maybe it’s a spectrum. But not thinking they’re racist is almost certainly an attribute that many non-racists and racists share. Then again, liberal guilt being what it is, some non-racists probably think they’re racist – as, obviously, do the more self-aware racists. So, whichever way you look at it, there’s loads of common ground."

David Mitchell

Ah Shrodinger's cat

Thank goodness for big bang theory now we all know about the blooming cat.....

Well I know I'm not racist and I don't feel I should feel I'm racist and I have no guilt because that changes nothing in the long run.

I treat everyone the same way I like to be treated, and some will do the same back to me and living in a very multi cultural area some people from every background will be rude/horrid back instead...that's life. Being the adult that I try to pretend to be I don't shout it from the rooftops I just think quietly to myself their lose......too many people want to blame what they see as wrong in their lives as being someone elses problem...racist...brexit....being poor...being rich...the list goes on...

Right Thanksgiving in Canada Happy overeating day and feeling guilty about it if that's your want........

I am neither a racist nor a jingoistic bigot. I voted to leave the EU. I am fed up with all the Jeremiahs and naysayers predicting that the country will implode. We voted to leave, get over it.

In 1975 the country voted to stay by a large margin.

We have had years and years of little Englanders banging on about a Europe they don't understand and screwing up the proper running of the country regardless of who is in power.

Now we have had a narrow majority to leave / brexit on terms which were never explained.

Why on earth should the 48 "get used to it" especially when in the real world rather than the make
believe world of Liam Fox it is the Leavers who actually manage the firms which are supposed to come up with UK futuire income. That the forex markets ( which are nut run by pimply teemnagers ) don't rate their chances as very good does not seem yet to have been understood.

"The people have voted" ... sure but the markets don't care. I wonder how well petrol at £ 1.30, €uro parity to the £ (or worse) for travellers, consumer price inflation with no wage increases, more cuts as govt as income falls esp NHS will go down ? I don't think that is what the Leavers voted for.

"And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sound of silence. "

Paul Simon

If the UK stays on its present track and tno deal is reached with the EU at some point between the New Year and 2024 there will be a massive sterling crisis a la greque. The IMF/Brussels won't come to the rescue ( as it has done before ) unless the UK accepted its own IMF control team which might by then please the starving brexiters. Such a rescue would involve replacing the £ with the €uro, rejoining the EU and years of pain.

Ah, says Mr brexit the EU will give us a great deal we are the super fantastic Brits. I really wouldn't bet the farm on it.

I voted NO in the first Common Market referendum and I voted to leave the EU this year.

I am not a 'little Englander' as I live in Wales.

I have also lived in Germany and Spain also visited a shed load of EU countries a number of times since I was 9 years old.

I have no idea why you think the EU family exists an a sort of Utopia Rollo. It doesn't. Look at the rise in popularity of the far right in many perceived 'cosmopolitan' countries across the Channel. Are their residents all inward looking as you think the British are?

I started this thread about the accusation about Britain being racist and trying to balance that publicly stated 'fact' by pointing out that other Countries are or can be seen to be exactly the same or worse. Nothing more nothing less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-juWpe5STk

14:48

Well said, Supercrutch. He does talk a lot of drivel, doesn't he.

we'll see if brreakfast oops brexit makes us all rich and happy then
or if the wonderful Mr Fox is all piss and wind

I'm all for listening to well reasoned opinions but self serving rants are really of no interest to me at all.

As far comparing Buchenwald to Aleppo I couldn't even force myself to comment because the premise is so ludicrous.

Among the things that concern me most about life after Brexit are the following.

How much import/export duty will be levied - I can remember when we had to pay it previously but I can't recall what it cost us back then without googling it?

Whose jobs will be most at risk when that duty becomes payable and some firms move production?

What will be the cost of visas and extra health insurance when travelling to the European countries?

How much more will clothes and similar items cost us here when Asian and Eastern European countries realise they have us over a barrel because we don't have the buying power of a pact of countries and because we have lost the means of producing enough for ourselves after selling much of the machinery overseas?

It would be a good idea if politicians could make a decent stab at answering some of the questions rather than keeping us in limbo.

Marine Le Pen - a fine example of a European - well, she's President of the NF - founded in 1972 - has been elected as a regional councillor (1998–present), a Member of European Parliament (2004–present), and a municipal councillor in Hénin-Beaumont (2008-2011), so obviously admired by quite a few 'broad minded' French!

Then there's the National Democratic Party in Germany. Founded 1964, and the newly arising (and elected) Ronald Glaser of the AfD party.

UKIP wasn't founded until 1993.

True, Britain had Moseley's fascist in the 1930's, the League of Empire Loyalists (mainly Tory members) in the 1950's - which was a pressure group rather than a political party, we have the NF, BNP (merging of a few small fascist parties) and English Defence League, but these groups are diminishing fast, and haven't managed to get members into the Government.

UKIP came along, and managed to get a couple of MP's - but, even though it's not my 'cup of tea', its a long way from being as right wing as Le Pen or Glaser.

Possibly some of the worst acts of discrimination committed by a few 'British' stalwarts is that of class.
One example is the assumption that a person from Social Housing isn't as intelligent or knowledgeable as a person from a detached house in the 'right' area. Likewise, the assumption that, if a person earns a lot of money, they are somehow 'better' than a person on lower pay, conveniently forgetting that they couldn't take home their vast salary if it wasn't for the lower paid workers doing the hard graft..
These assumptions are unjust, unfounded and an attempt to keep the working class 'in their place', or for the perpetrator to assume some form of one upmanship.
They're also a form of bigotry.

Yet the very same person who assumes this attitude this will loudly declare they're not a bigot, not prejudiced - everyone else is!

Okay full of turkey...meat not the country....hmm...some you win some you lose...get over it...been here before will be here again as some will not just try and make the best of the situation .........yes there'll be bumps along the way...it wasn't all plain sailing in the EU either lets take the rose coloured specs off for a while shall we....

Another question.

When Donald Trump has finished building the wall between the USA and Mexico, will he go for the whole shebang of isolationism and build one between the US and Canada?

Does he mean to keep people in as well as keeping people out?

Does it smack of the Iron Curtain?

The list goes on ..... questions, questions .....

for JoyLouise



>>> How much import/export duty will be levied - I can remember when we had to pay it previously but I can't recall what it cost us back then without googling it?

If the UK pulls off some kind of Single Market / EEA agreement then there will be no custom duties with the EU and world wide duties as of now under EU agreements mostly zero to 3%. However if there is no agreement then there will be steep rises in duty especially on finished cars (10%) and agricultural products esp meat at 40%. Inwards the UKGov would be likely to reintroduce heavy taxes on wine and spirits as well as limiting personal imports.

>>> Whose jobs will be most at risk when that duty becomes payable and some firms move production?
Agricultural workers and farmers ; automotive industry including anybody in the supply chain ; people in any location where there is a lot of dependence on auto/agri exports eg Swindon, Sunderland, Liverpool, Oxford, Brum, hill farms, Scotland. Other large scale job losers would include finance & banking, media and drugs, higher education though the cause would not be duties.

It is really important to realise the problem would not be custom duties as such. Since 2005 a world wide just-in-time customs system has evolved which enables rapid clearance of products at ports and airports. Access to this is sina que non for the auto industry. UK access to the system is through the EU Customs Union which includes the EEA. Current plans by Liam Fox would shut the door on this. Creaitng a parallel system for the UK is not a starter.

>>> What will be the cost of visas and extra health insurance when travelling to the European countries?

For the moment none. It is likely that the E111 scheme for emergency health care will continue. Even now relying just on E111 for health cover when elsewhere in the EU is unwise. British expats in Spain etc could find themselves unable to remain resident unless they were able to finance medical insurance. That would however be unlikely to apply to existing expats given the recent "they can stay" undertaking by UKGov. The Schengen area is likely to beef up EU external border security for the area effective sometime after 2020. If they do (likely) then UK citizens will need a visa in exactly the same way as they currently do for the USA. Cost € 20-100 depending on type.

>>> How much more will clothes and similar items cost us here when Asian and Eastern European countries realise they have us over a barrel because we don't have the buying power of a pact of countries and because we have lost the means of producing enough for ourselves after selling much of the machinery overseas?

They don't have us over a barrel. Machinery "sold overseas" was long ago - 1960s/70s machinery is a museum piece even in Bangla Desh. Although it is not very well acknowledged thanks to Asian immigrants bringing back the skills there has been quite a resurgence of the rag trade in the East Midlands. Advantages for retailers are quick turnaround and far more control. UK shoe man. is picking up too from up market trainers to leather brogues and loafers. Most of the UK production is upmarket you won't find it in Matelan or TKMaxx. Competition on price/quality in third world countries is fierce from VietNam to Tunisia. However if the £ drops to around parity to the €uro prices in the shops will of course rise.

>>> It would be a good idea if politicians could make a decent stab at answering some of the questions rather than keeping us in limbo.

It would have been quite a good idea if people had asked themselves a few hard questions before the referendum. Even better if the BBC, ITV and news media had done so as well. As it is the great British public have been, in Mr Trumps words, "suckered".

Right now T May administration is trying to square the brexit circle of not tanking the economy, t, not ending up relying on ancient WTO agreements, rejecting freedom of movement. They will not succeed.

Why not? The UK has always seen the EU/Common Market as a glorified trading zone and has tried to absent itself from the political dimension. The UK has suffered grievously from this. The rest of the EU however have always seen the organisation as primarily political, a bulwark against fascism and such. As an example recent undemocratic trends in Poland, Austria and Hungary have run into the buffers thanks to EU intervention. It is also seen by Germany and the eastern states as preventing the return of Russian control in E Europe. German firms have railed against the loss of business from Russia but Merkel is unmoved. The same will happen in brexit negotiations.

Right now there is an ever expanding list of projects on hold, cancelled of which the latest is VW which will not invest further in the UK until the smoke clears. The Japanese position is well known. An increasing number of companies are already voting with their feet. It has already become very difficult to recruit skilled staff from the rest of the EU or even hang on to them. Skilled UK workers, esp those under 35, are seriously considering out either to the EU proper or Oz/NZ/USA/Canada. Who can blame them.

There you go.

Bumps in the road? More like lemmings over the cliff.