General Chat

Does Britain still have a class system? Is this more of an `out-dated` view held by older generations within Britain or does the class system still exist today?

The class system is still alive and well Dan.

Daniel Class is a funny thing, isn't it? Years ago they had first, second and third class in the trains. I did a quiz yonks ago in (I think) New Society magazine which worked out which class you were by asking things like: before eating, do you prefer half a pint of lager a dry martini a small sherry? Nancy Mitford began U and non-U (U = upper class) speech as a class indicator - eg if you said 'looking glass' you were upper and if you said 'mirror' you weren't. But 'looking class' nowadays sounds old-fashioned, rather than posh. In my childhood, the right way to speak was BBC-English. Today, BBC presenters have accents of all kinds, which is much more interesting. Although my father was a bus conductor and we lived in a council house, we were considered 'posh' by the neighbours because we listened to classical music and read books. When my schoolfriends came round for a meal after school we called it dinner and had a roast. When I went round to their houses, although they all had dads that were accountants etc and their homes were owned and had central heating and fitted carpets, they ate 'tea' and it was spaghetti hoops out of a tin, on toast. So how would you define class today? Have you seen that very old but so true and very funny sketch from the David Frost programme with John Cleese (upper class), Ronnie Barker (middle class) and Ronnie Corbett (lower class)? Some of it went: JC: I look down on him and him because I have innate breeding. But sometimes I look up to him (RB) because he has more money than me. RB: I look up to him (JC) because he has innate breeding. But I look down on him (RC) because he is lower class. RC: I know my place. nell

Here's a comment I read recently: 'We have a class society but its not based on wealth, looks, youth or breeding. Its based on style. You can be rich, gorgeous and aristocratic but if you have the taste of a pools winner, the dress sense of Wayne Rooney and the manners of pig, none of it will get you anywhere in civilised society' I think there's a fair amount of truth in that.

Well Daniel That implies there is a civilised society somewhere! nell

Daniel, I've worked for people who are mega rich and most of them don't flaunt it. Their kids wear tatty clothes and they don't go overboard wearing designer gear. They always try to get the best deals when they shop and are usually really great to work for, especially at Christmas. The snobbiest people that I've met are the new moneyed types who haven't grown up with wealth and try to fit in by wearing too much designer gear to show the world that they are 'better' because they can afford it. Don't you think that the Beckhams are a typical example of people trying to buy status and position? As my husband says you can take the girl out of the council house but you can't take the council house out of the girl! Louise

Ere, Louise, Don't you go bracketing me with that Posh Spice just because we are both ex-council house girls! nell

No offence meant Nell. My husband lived in a council house too! Posh spice is just a joke. Louise

None taken, Louise. I was just being 'tongue-in-cheek'. Posh still lives in the same county as me now, though I am in North Herts and she's in the East. My husband says I sing better than her, but that's not too hard, is it? nell

Nell, Did Posh ever sing or did she pay someone else to do it for her? Afterall sh couldn't manage child birth either could she? Louise.

Dan, The definitiion of 'Class' changed during the twentieth century, largely due to the Labour Party winning the General Election at the end of World War II, which had been a watershed in the same way as the First World War. The emancipation of women was a great step forward in the early years, then in the middle of the century 'the workers' became more and more powerful due to the trades unions. These days, one's social 'Class' is dictated by wealth indicators, but the 'nouveau riche' merchant/manufacturer stratum of the old days is now well-represented by highly-paid footballers, City traders, etc. 'High Class' is still represented by 'old money' and what remains of the aristocracy, but there is still the barrier of NQOCD (Not quite our class, dear!), which aspirants to the dizzy heights have to overcome. There was a very telling episode of Fawlty Towers, where the supposed 'Lord Melbury' checked in at the hotel. Sybil complained to Basil about the 'tatty', old suitcase the 'Lord' had with him, and Basil replied that it was only people with true 'Class' who have such tat. (New money has everything brand, spanking new.) There's also a benchmark regarding furniture. If you've bought your own, you're New Money and NQOCD. If you've inherited it and it's antique (preferably along with the ancestral pile), then you truly do have 'Class'! Personally, I think it's all a load of tosh. People are who they are, regardless of their birth circumstances or how much money they have. CB >|< X

Yes the class system is still there - although expectations are better for working class kids, they have to have determination and ambition to succeed. Still much easier for the son of a doctor to a doctor and for the son of a labourer to be a labourer. I think a lot of us still judge people on what we assume their class to be.

You're darn tootin right there Roxanne !!!

Tally ho, Benders, old bean! What? CB >|< XX

Sorry but I am definitely a pleb. One of my ancestors spent time in Gloucester gaol in the 1830s because he nicked some firewood off Lord Stovell's estate. Most of the thieves mentioned in the Glous. gaol register [searchable online via the Glos. Records office website] were stealing things they obviously needed for their own use - boots, firewood, etc. rather than today's tealeaves who nick stereos etc to sell on to others. nell

Absolutely, old bean.

I was told once that you could tell the class of a person by their use of the word napkin instead of serviette!!! BC

A 'class' system is something that pervades every society in one way or another - it's part of the human condition for some to try to persuade others that they are 'better' in some way. Certainly, the class system is alive and kicking in Britian, it's just not PC to acknowledge it most of the time. One interesting aspect of the whole thing, I think, is how some people can be a member of a particular 'class' but at the same time demonstrate great 'classiness' or a complete lack of 'class'. It's one of those areas where the same word means two slightly different things. I'm thinking here of perhaps the person who doesn't have to hafpennies to rub together and would be describes by some as 'lower class' but still behaves with great class and aplomb, or the person who comes from an established and wealthy family (the upper class) who behaves in a crass and inappropriate manner. I'm sure we've all met people like that!

IME, it's people who start out humble and move up in the world who are the biggest snobs!

Difficult question Daniel. There are still Strata in our Society, but are there really Class Divisions? A member of the Royal Family earns a living in TV. Many of the Landed Gentry are struggling to pay the death duties. People with ONE talent, e.g. the ability to sing in tune, or football skills, earn more money than most. So I don't think that the Classes are defined today by money. The Upper Class used to be 'The Nobility', or those who were descended from certain Families. This implies that they were the ones who were respected, or 'looked up to.' Who do we respect today? Certainly not some buffoon whose only claim to fame is that his umpteenth ggfather was a useful General. Nor do we fully respect our Leaders because, as a democracy, we have the option to remove them from office. Respect for 'The Law' is at an all-time low because we see criminals getting a pat on the wrist instead of a swingeing sentence, and the Police will come to see about your burglary in a couple of days...perhaps. The PC Brigade have done a good job in preventing ANYONE from being the underclass. My belief is that the only Classes we have today are 'The Working Class' from factory worker to Chairman of the Board, from Politician to Judge, Scientist to Piano Teacher and 'The Gimme Gimme Class', by which I mean in attitude rather than in fact. I do not say that a willing worker who is temporarily unemployed comes into the second class, nor am I including those who, through no fault of their own have had to depend on the State for their subsistence.