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I have a copy of my nan's marriage certificate for her first marriage. Dated 25 Dec 1927 my nan Lilian Franks 21 her father Joseph Franks deceased. I remember her telling me she was 16 when she married. Her second marriage she was 60 12 June 1971 (she'd be 61 12 days later) Therefore I have 3 possible birth dates 24 June 1906/1910/1911. I'm convinced she was born 1911. Anyway still can't find birth record for her. Have found a marriage record for a Joseph Franks but if I'm going by the 1911 census his wife was a Rose, there isn't a Rose in the possible matches but should I ignore that? Desperate to find out about this family but not finding any info, what should I do next any advice? I did find a birth record for a female Franks which could match, maybe I should buy that and hope it's her?

Who are the witnesses on the marriage cert

She may have been 21 and lied about being younger all her life grandparents did things like that...I know mine did

jax

The witnesses were Joseph Nelson and Florence Mary Reynolds. No idea who they were though!

Deaths of Joseph Franks in the London area

Deaths Jun 1915 (>99%)
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Franks Joseph 39 Islington 1b 267

Deaths Jun 1909 (>99%)
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FRANKS Joseph 45 Whitechapel 1c 157

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Thanks for that. I am wondering whether he died 1915 and maybe his wife remarried. I need a maiden name for her which I haven't got.
I was wondering if anyone had access to the UK passport applications to see if Joseph Franks could be found there, although I don't know what year he would have applied for a passport if he did.

Anyway thanks for help.

have you considered this one ?

Births Jun 1909
Franks Lily Mile End 1c 407

we have seen women named Lily and Mary call themselves Lilian and Marian when they were older, those names were not so 'common' :-) or they just thought that was their name

this could be that Lily in 1911

FRANKS LILLY 1910 1 Stepney London

her family was

FRANKS HARRIS 1879 32
FRANKS DEBORAH 1881 30
FRANKS HYMAN 1903 8 S
FRANKS MICHAEL 1906 5
FRANKS KITTY 1908 3

but I can't see any details

Marriages Jun 1902
Franks Harris Mile End 1c 731
Solomons Deborah Mile End 1c 731

in 1901 he is

Name: Harris Frankes
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Brother-in-Law
Gender: Male
Where born: Austria Austrian Subject
Civil parish: Mile End Old Town
a grocery shop assistant

so maybe that one is not looking too likely but it is always good to check out the possibilities

there is also

Births Sep 1911
FRANKS Lily Artus W Ham 4a 793

and

Births Dec 1913
FRANKS Dulcie R Artus W. Ham 4a 675
Births Sep 1916
Franks Emily M Artus W.Ham 4a 652
Births Mar 1921
FRANKS Daniel W Artus W.Ham 4a 676
Births Sep 1923
Franks Betty Artus W.Ham 4a 560
Births Dec 1926
Franks Elsdon T Artus W. Ham 4a 488

Marriages Jun 1907
ARTUS Alice W. Ham 4a 335
FRANKS Daniel Thomas W. Ham 4a 335

children Alice and Anne in 1911 census

Elsdon for instance does not seem to have married, died 2005 in Colchester ... could he have preferred to call himself David ?

is there anything your mum and dad remember about him ? how old he was, where he lived, whether he was married .........


remember that if she lied about her age when she first married she may well have lied about her father ... and then just stuck with it :-)

Hi,

Thanks for all that info. I thought the Lilly Franks in Stepney was promising as the father was from Poland/Russia but his wife was as well and from what I understand she was from London. I have so little info on this family which makes it so difficult. I have tried different variations of the names Lilian and Franks. True that if she lied about her age she could have lied about other stuff! My dad said she destroyed a lot of stuff from her past, well she's done a good job of that!!! I don't like giving up but think I'll have to and wait 10 years for the 1921 census!!
I was also thinking that as they were strict jews maybe they only registered the births through the jewish community. I have looked at some jewish websites but no luck as yet, but maybe need to explore that some more.
Thanks again for everyone's time and effort trying to help.
Will keep this post on here for awhile longer if that's ok.

please do not delete the thread, there is no reason ever to do that

if everyone did it the boards would be empty ! and think what a loss of so much information that would be

someone might do an internet search for your names one day and find this thread

and if you do come upon new information or think of new angles you would need this thread to add them to since starting a new thread would amount to 'duplication' and all of this related information would have to be reconstructed

mystery ancestors are what keep us all interested :-)

OK thanks for that! I thought I had read somewhere on here that you had to delete threads after awhile, so glad I don't have to! :-)

if Lilian was telling the truth about her father ... he was Joseph a tailor and he was deceased in 1927 ... this is another death you might want to consider

Name: Joseph Franks
Birth Date: abt 1887
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1924
Age at Death: 37
Registration district: St George in The East
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 362


in 1901

Name: Joseph Franks
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Franks
Mother's name: Annie Franks
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitechapel, London, England

Civil parish: St Botolph Without Aldgate

John Franks 48 barman born in London City
Annie Franks 45 born in Whitechapel
Abraham Franks 24 tobacconist
Dora Franks 18 pupil teacher
Joseph Franks 14 errand boy
Louis Franks 10
Isaac Franks 8
Sophia Franks 5
Lily Franks 3


the neighbours are Jewish born in London and the occupations centre on the tobacco and clothing trades


in 1911 I think he is not this one

FRANKS JOSEPH M 1889 22 Whitechapel London (born in Whitechapel)

because I do not subscribe I can't be sure but I think he is living with parents Isaac and Zelda and sister Annie 1881



but I may have a better idea

this Joseph is a tailor and was born in Russia

FRANK JOSEPH 1871 40 Bethnal Green London

and is living with

FRANK RUTH 1872 39
FRANK JULIA 1892 19
FRANK JOHN 1894 17
FRANK SOLOMON 1896 15
FRANK REBECCA 1899 12
FRANK ZETA 1899 12
FRANK DANIEL 1907 4
FRANK LEAH 1910 9 MONTHS

now how about the possibility that Lilian was Leah ? ( or was born after the census )

the gap between Zeta and Daniel does suggest a possible second marriage

I can't find any previous records for any of them though so it would be nice to have the details from the 1911 census to use for searching ( or perhaps they were not in England in 1901 ... ) and also to see whether the name has been spelt correctly

Fairthorn Fairthorn don't go away :-)

we are really wanting the other household ... the second one I posted ...

Joseph Frank 1871 with wife Ruth and children including Leah 1910

I can't find any trace of them before or after 1911 even using lots of wildcard searches and such


........ I am wondering about ...........

Name: Leah Yanikoff
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1910
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Inferred County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 165

1911 census - household transcription
Person: FRANK, Joseph
Address: 71 Granby St Bethnal Green


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FRANK, Joseph Husband Married M 40 1871 Journeyman Tailor Russia VIEW
FRANK, Ruth Mother Married F 39 1872 Berkshire VIEW
FRANK, Julia Daughter Single F 19 1892 Felling Hand Tailoress Spitalfields London VIEW
FRANK, John Son Single M 17 1894 Wood Carver Apprentice London Bethnal Green VIEW
FRANK, Solomon Son M 15 1896 Pianoforte Maker Apprentice London Bethnal Green VIEW
FRANK, Rebecca Daughter F 12 1899 London Bethnal Green VIEW
FRANK, Zeta Daughter F 12 1899 London Bethnal Green VIEW
FRANK, Daniel Son M 4 1907 London Bethnal Green VIEW
FRANK, Leah Daughter F 0 (9 MONTHS) 1911 London Bethnal Green VIEW
DAVIS, Esther Step Child Daughter F 17 1894 London Bethnal Green VIEW
DAVIS, Eva Step Child Daughter F 12 1899 London Bethnal Green VIEW

okay then jax thank you now we need to find them before or after that !

but it seems that Joseph Frank must have married Ruth Davis ... except there is no such marriage 1899 to 1911 ... ( no Ruth Davis to a Joseph )

edit oops Fairthorn you slipped in there too

( but my goodness it is easier to read jax's version ! )

we have Ruth in 1901

Name: Rush Davis
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Thatcham, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Whitechapel

Rush Davis 30 widow ... milk dealer
Rachel E Davis 7 ( Esther )
Eva Davis 2
Sarah G Davis 7 Months

children born in Spitalfields, neighbours Jewish, some Russian born

ah so not Leah, no wonder I could not find a marriage for her, thank you Fairthorn

says married 7 years??

well it certainly does not seem to have been in London, there were a handful of marriages for Joseph and a Ruth in London in 1903 and 1904 and none of them look like these people ................

Wow! Thanks for all this information! I'll have a proper look at all this later tonight. This is very appreciated that you are all taking the time and effort to come up with this information for me.
Joseph's wife went and lived with my nan in Edmonton later on in her life. She died the early 1940's so will see if I can find anything to tie in with the information given. Thanks again!

If the Joseph and Ruth household looks really worth investigating

it might come down to getting the birth certificate of one of Ruth's children

to find out Ruth's surname

and then you could search for births from 1911 with that mother's surname

Births Jun 1894
Davis Rachel Esther Whitechapel 1c 271