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Savage Confusion

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 29 Aug 2013 23:12


I had another look at ParishRegister and saw the article had been submitted by 'Rosemary' - of course that makes sense! :-)

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 29 Aug 2013 19:54

Yes JannieAnnie, many of my Fishlocks were lightermen/watermen :-D It's my William in the article on parish reg :-D

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 29 Aug 2013 18:04


Hi Rose

No - I hadn't seen that, that is really interesting - will have a look at the link

Thank you

J-A

PS Just realised when I was looking through ParishRegister.com I saw the name (William) Fishlock but wasn't sure where I had seen it on the Boards -and now I see the same surname name in your Researching box! Obviously where I saw it before...were your Fishlocks lightermen/watermen?

Rambling Rose

Rambling Rose Report 29 Aug 2013 17:41

Have you seen this?

"JOSEPH JOHN SAVAGE . I am lighterman to William and Edward Joyce, of Water-lane, Tower-street. On the 4th of April I was sent for some cases of wine”I got to the Batavia about half-past four o'clock, and received eighteen cases from the Custom-house officer on board”I took them to St. Katherine's Docks in a lugboat”I covered them with a tarpaulin”I was not able to get into the dock, and left the lugboat outside, in charge of a Custom-house officer”next day I went to the Thames police station, and found the lugboat with fourteen cases of wine in it”four cases were gone."


http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/print.jsp?div=t18440506-1425

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 29 Aug 2013 16:01



I am revisiting Joseph John Savage and collating information before I take a trip to the Guildhall Library which holds information on Lightermen. Today I noticed on a search on FMP (Thames watermen and lightermen 1688-2010) that there are 4 'Event' records for a Joseph John Savage in 1826, 1839, 1854, 1861.

If anyone has a sub to FMP I would be grateful to know what these 'events' are - and to see if they are about my Savage (or not). I hope that these are the same records I could access at the Guildhall Library.

Many thanks

J-A



JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 17 May 2013 00:50

NanaSue

Thank you for your information regarding the difficulties there seems to be in the distances. It probably depends on how far you are prepared to travel and for what reason I suppose! I have to admit I was basing it on my view of distance - one place from another.

I have been checking locations in a bit more detail and it seems that Harmon Street (gone) would probably have been in the vicinity of where Harman Estate is now - just off the Kingsland Road - the A10, originally a Roman road, so not a track - I expect the mud was more likely to have been dung!

If coming down from the direction of Tottenham in the north of London, Kingsland Road runs towards the Thames through Shoreditch - becoming Shoreditch High Street, but still the A10 until it gets roughly to Bishopsgate where it ceases to be the A10 but continues the fairly short distance to the River (about 15 minutes or so I would think to walk it - I don't rush). Onto London Bridge, off the other side - keep going straight to the Elephant (via the Borough) turn left and you are on the Walworth Road (well not the first road, that is Old Kent Road).

Using A10 as a guide (still coming from Tottenham) Harman Street (right hand side) and keep going to the right - you are very quickly in Borough of Islington , if you go to the left at the Shoreditch part of the A10, you are almost in Spitalfields - and if you keep going you quickly come to Stepney, Whitechapel and Mile End - in Tower Hamlets.

Interestingly - you mention Lamb Court as being Angel tube side - Old Street (junction with Kingsland Road just before it becomes Shoreditch High Street) heads towards Angel Islington via City Road which is just a walk up. Of course, if you continued to the end of Old Street (not using City Road to get to Angel) you get to Clerkenwell Road which is where I thought that Lamb Court might have been - in the area of Clerkenwell Green.

Looking at Google maps you can see how close all the locations are to each other, and it seems reasonable to me to move from Southwark to Hackney (if you are a bigamist), then to Mile End to be closer to the River and work.

I agree today it could probably take 1.5 hrs to get to Walworth SE17 from Islington - but I blame it on traffic, traffic lights, congestion zone and time of day (driving). Of course if you use a bus, they are annoying and keep stopping to pick up and drop off passengers. Of course, it also depends on your route from Islington to Walworth.

You may have guessed - I like a map!

CupCakes

CupCakes Report 16 May 2013 18:01

Just looking at the address
Islington ones are far from the others
"Lamb Court, Islington - probably not too far into Islington"
is Angel tube side

*East Street - off Walworth Road, SE London (now SE17)
is south of the river

The logistics of trvelling back then would have been a long journey with muddy roads. Takes me 1.5 hrs to get to my son's house SE17 from Islington

The others are Tower Hamlets side ever further a field

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 16 May 2013 14:22

GlasgowLass - nothing too far from each other

*East Street - off Walworth Road, SE London (now SE17)
**Frying Pan Alley, Spitalfields, East London E1
Marmon Street - still looking for it
Lamb Court, Islington - probably not too far into Islington
**Grove Street (St George in the East) - Spitalfields area
**William Street (Mile End Old Town)

**All in relatively close proximity - on east side of River Thames
* Just across London Bridge and you are in East London and close to **

Thanks for the update on Lighterman (LMA have records so will check them out) - as it was working on the barges on the River in Port of London he could easily have been on both sides of the water.

Off to look for Marmon Street

EDITED - Nothing coming up for Marmon but definitely something for Harman Street - which was in Spitalfields area too - just looked at a map, more Hoxton area so a bit further along and across the Kingsland Road towards Islington (although Hoxton is close to Spitalfields anyway)

Can only conclude they are connected in some way....

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 16 May 2013 13:53

Apologies:
1841 census does say Lighterman and not Lamplighter!

I don't know enough about London Boroughs either to make any real connections but as far as I can see, no two records have the same address?

1832 marriage: no address
1837 marriage: both parties live at No3 East Street
1838 death of Mary Ann Savage: Frying Pan Alley
1839 birth of Lousa Jane: Marmon Street
1840 death of Mary Ann Savage: Lamb Court
1841 census: Grove Street
1843 marriage :23 and 14 William Street


JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 16 May 2013 13:22


Either could be possible - Tower Hamlets and Islington can be in close proximity at some parts of London, and Frying Pan Alley is E1 not far from the change to Islington Borough - I think the 1838 one could be Mary Ann Munro

EDIT: Then again maybe she was Joseph John's mother...(as she was about 55), or maybe he married an older woman..... had one child, then went and married Ann Taylor. Too much speculation.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 16 May 2013 13:11

Don't know enough about London districts to know if this is possible?

London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980
about Mary Ann Savage

Name: Mary Ann Savage
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1840
Burial Date: 30 Aug 1840
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820
Parish or Poor Law Union: Clerkenwell St James
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Register

Lived Lamb Court.

MarieCeleste

MarieCeleste Report 16 May 2013 12:56

I think this is possibly the burial for that 1838 death:

London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980
about Mary Ann Savage

Name: Mary Ann Savage
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1838
Burial Date: 28 Jan 1838
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1783
Parish or Poor Law Union: Spitalfields Christ Church with St Mary and St Stephen
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Register

Lived Frying Pan Alley (what a great name!)

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 16 May 2013 12:46

Mmmmm now I am wondering about this (from LMA, so might need a trip there)

MARY ANN SAVAGE IS ORDERED TO BE REMOVED FROM THE PARISH OF SAINT MARGARET, WESTMINSTER TO DUBLIN (why Dublin? Unless she is Mary Ann Munro - this was in Feb 1838 - Business relating to the removal of Scottish and Irish paupers) - perhaps Joseph registered her death in Whitechapel in Q1 1838? Or it may not be connected at all!

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 16 May 2013 12:25

GlasgowLass, so difficult to get my head around those Savages but that christening record certainly looks like the proof that he was married to Mary Ann Munro and then Ann Taylor - not sure about the "I am now George" bit, possibly an enumerator error?

Perhaps he could no longer be a 'lighterman' - and changed to lamplighter - or maybe I have been getting confused with lighterman - working in the docks and a man who lights lamps.

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 16 May 2013 12:03

What really throws me is the 1851 census.
Head of household is a lamplighter but definitely entered as George?

1851 England Census about Ann Savage
Name: Ann Savage
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George Savage
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: St. Johns, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Stepney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration District: Stepney
Sub-registration District: Mile End Old Town Upper
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 155
Piece: 1552
Folio: 164
Page Number: 37
Household Members:
Name Age
George Savage 44
Ann Savage 33
George Savage 15
Louisa Savage 12
Henry Savage 4

GlasgowLass

GlasgowLass Report 16 May 2013 11:57

On this 1841 census, the head of the household's age really faint but I don't think it says 22 although I am certain it says lamplighter.

1841 England Census about Joseph Savage
Name: Joseph Savage
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: St George Middlesex
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
View Image
Registration District: St George in the East
Sub-registration District: St Mary
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 696
Book: 11
Folio: 5
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Savage 22
Ann Savage 20
Joseph Savage 10 **** Says 12 on original
Mary Savage 8
George Savage 4
Jane Savage 2

Possible proof that Joseph snr was indeed previously married to Mary Ann Munro?

England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906 about Joseph John Savage
Name: Joseph John Savage
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 20 Jun 1833
Christening Place: St. John, Surrey, Eng
Father's Name: Joseph John Savage
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Maternal Grandfather's Name: William Munro

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 16 May 2013 11:25


Just seen the C Porter bit (was surprised when I read it as carpenter), certainly coal porter fits in more with my lot though, and that death of Mary Ann Savage looks interesting - I suppose it is possible she was ill and he was off out finding wife No 2 - but then if she was ill, maybe they could have waited - or maybe he went off before that!

As you say lots if bits point to it being Joseph John in all three marriages. I know he appears in other trees, but usually only as father of Louisa (edited from Louis!) Jane, will go for another look around.

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 16 May 2013 11:01

Death of first wife? Pity it doesn't give ages!

Mary Ann Savage
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1838
Registration District: Whitechapel
Inferred County: London
Volume: 2
Page: 51_

JannieAnnie

JannieAnnie Report 16 May 2013 10:54



Thanks for those updates +++DetEcTive+++, did have a bit of trouble reading the occupation, and was probably misled by the occupation on the other cert - suppose it is more likely to have an occupation change than the other potential coincidences though.

Looks like I have more digging to do for Joseph John.

Thanks for your help

+++DetEcTive+++

+++DetEcTive+++ Report 16 May 2013 10:45

William Savage occupation on the 1837 image is Coal Porter (dec)
Added - William Savage on 1843 is something beginning with C Porter, not carpenter.

Although Joseph John Savage's signature might be slightly different on the 1837 one it matches with the 1832 marriage. However, there is quite good evidence that the same Joseph John Savage was involved in all three.