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Note James is a mechanic
maybe in the mill?

1861 census - household transcription
Person: RYLANCE, Sarah
Address: 7, Makinsons Square, Great Bolton, Bolton Le Moors, Bolton
RYLANCE, James Head Married M 46 1815 Mechanic Engine Fitter
Wigan
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Sarah Wife Married F 43 1818 Cotton Piecer
Wigan
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, James Son M 16 1845 Cotton Piecer
Bolton
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Mary Ann Daughter F 13 1848 Scholar
Bolton
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Ellen Daughter F 12 1849 Scholar
Bolton
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Margaret Daughter F 8 1853 Scholar
Bolton
Lancashire


NOT THIS ONE

1851 census - household transcription
Person: RYLANCE, Sarah
Address: Black Horse Street, Great Bolton, Bolton
RYLANCE, James Head Married M 35 1816 Mechanic Foundry
Wigan
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Sarah Wife Married F 32 1819
Wigan
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, William Son M 14 1837 Ware House Cotton Mill
Bolton
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, James Son M 5 1846 Scholar
Bolton
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Mary Daughter F 4 1847
Bolton
Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Ellen Daughter F 0 (6 MOS) 1851
Bolton
Lancashire

NOT THIS ONE

1841 census - household transcription
Person: RYLANCE, William
Address: Cary Street, Bolton, Bolton, Great
RYLANCE, James M 20 1821 Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, Sarah F 20 1821 Lancashire VIEW
RYLANCE, William M 2 1839 Lancashire


NOT THIS ONE ALTHOUGH COULD FIT IN LATER

William Rylance Pedigree
Male



Christening: 04 OCT 1838 Bolton Le Moors, Lancashire, England
Parents:
Father: James Rylance Family
Mother: Sarah Rylance
Messages:
Extracted

C006478

NOT THIS ONE

I am confused LadKira, you have switched to a different family. I was assuming that Sarah Rylands married Daniel Macintosh. Widow of George Rylands:

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Dec 1864 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rylands George Warrington 8c 104

You may well be right Madmeg

I latched on to Daniel. Need to check them both out.

Sleep now.

That Rylance family is here in 1871:

1871 England Census
about Margaret Rylance
Name: Margaret Rylance
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Great Bolton
Town: Bolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Bolton
Sub-registration district: Bolton Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Household schedule number: 123
Household Members: Name Age
James Rylance 52 Widow
Ellen Rylance 19
Margaret Rylance 17
James Ryeby 18

And this could be Sarah's death:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Sarah Rylance
Name: Sarah Rylance
Estimated birth year: abt 1820
Year of Registration: 1871
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 51
District: Bolton
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 246 (click to see others on page)

So she isn't "ours".

Time for a summary, partly for my own benefit!

We have "found" John Joyce b Manchester 1876 in 1881 and 1891 with new "father" Samuel Glithero, mother Mary b 1842 Warrington, nee Rylands, formerly Joyce, father George, a mechanic. Except the only George with a Mary who fits is not a mechanic.

In 1881, mother in law Sarah Macintosh b 1812 Manchester appears with the Glitheros. She is Sarah something (forgotten), who married George Rylands, parents of Mary. After George died she married Daniel Macintosh, a Scot, with four young Scots.

We have not found a marriage of Mary Rylands to a Joyce. We have found a Joyce family in 1871 who are possibles, with Husband Andrew (b Ireland 1841), wife Mary, b Warrington 1841, and 2 children Mary A, 1866 St Helens, and Margaret 1868 St Helens. Andrew Joyce dies (Sep 1876), cannot find any trace of the two little girls.

I have not found Andrew Joyce on any other census.

So what next?

No definite birth for John Joyce.
Only one reasonable birth for Mary Rylands in Warrington (and there are other Mary Rylands/Roylances etc born there).
No marriage of Mary Rylands and Andrew Joyce.
No proof we have the right Rylands family in 1851 & 61.

Possible ways forward:

Apply to Manchester Records office for birth of a John Joyce c 1876, mmn Mary Rylands and see if they find one. They are usually very helpful. Of course, it might not be exactly Manchester as we haven't found one. So you might have to ask the same of Lancashire Records office at Preston.

Nope, I was intending making a list of "ways forward" and failed miserably.

It might be worth a gamble in getting that one birth of Mary in Warrington, again if you stipulate father as George, that will tie it down.

Succintly put Madmeg.

On the mechanic point.
A mechanic at that time was not anything to do with cars but could quite easily be to do with the looms.
These were complicated pieces of machinery.

From old occupations on Genuki
Mechanic 1) Machine operator, less skilled than an engineer
2) A journeyman engaged in one of the lower forms of handicraft

Discharger Of Vessels is not defined

Cardroomer Worker in the carding room of cotton/woollen mills
Carder Carded (combed - a skilled job) wool or cotton .
Card Maker 1) Made the combs and implements for carding (combing) wool
2) Made the loom-cards used by Jacquard looms in the weaving of figured fabrics
Card Master In charge of the carding room in a cotton/wollen mill

Card Nailer / Nailorer Maintained the teeth (nails) on the carding machine used on wool & cotton before weaving

Yep LK, these could all be reasonable alternatives. And on marriage, you just chose the one that fitted.

What do you think about the certs to now ask for?

To see if Andrew Joyce was the wife of our Sarah, EDIT, what a load of rubbish, to see if he was the husband of our Mary, we would need the birth cert of one of those little girls, but neither of them is coming up.

Oh, blimey. Could cost money, couldn't it?

Managed to get back on here( family visiters this weekend!!)
Wow what can I add to all that? I am even more confused then ever now.
Maybe I need to tackle one name at a time, as I believe that there are two familiew with vitrually same names Rylands and Rylance and this is throwing us off our tracks.
My summary,
Mary Rylands daughter of Sarah and George Rylands born Warrington Lancashire.
No one can find marriage of her to first husband possibly Andrew Joyce, maybe she married somewhere else possibly Ireland?

How many children born to that marriage? and to throw yet another mystery maybe when she remarried in 1879 and the 1881 census took place her children were put as her 2nd husband's children, just a thought as I can not find these births?

Such a mystery!!

I have everything else when she remarried to when she dies, except to how many children she actually had with her 2nd husband, as far as I know only one child survived.

I have found a tree on Ancestry wiyh a Margaret Joyce c1867 Manchester married to John Topping 1870.
This person has foound no trace of Margaret's family so is possible.
Worth following through though.

Susan, I think we discarded the James Rylance who is a mechanic, as he's still alive in 1871, his wife Sarah dying in 1871 just before the census.

Mary only had John with her in 1881, I wouldn't worry about him being recorded as a Glithero, it could have been a mistake by the enumerator or the person who then transcribed the household schedules into the books. I haven't found Mary Ann or Margaret. Ther person who has Margaret in her tree on Ancestry hasn't found her in 1871 or 1881 either.

On the 1861 census there are a couple of "Dischargers of Glass", so maybe George was something like that. Though no idea what one of those does - ah, LK has already said a mechanic was a journeyman involved in a lower form of handicraft - making glass! Yes, his neighbours are all glass-blowers and the like.

More thinking to do.

Oh Dear Ladies, I think I might have found another puzzle with this family.
Tell me what you think?

We have assumed that Mary was married to an Andrew Joyce, well on the 1881 Census with her new husband, there are three sons under his surname, Andrew born about 1872 Manchester, Joseph Patrick born about 1876 Manchester, and John born about 1877 also Manchester.
The more I read into this the more I am coming to the conclusion that these three lads were in fact Mary's children by her first marriage!
John who is under his stepdad's surname on the 1881 Census but same details 10 years later but in his correct surname!

Also, I recall a family member saying thatMary's 2nd husband was not a Catholic, but when he remarried he did so in that faith because his new wife was a Catholic.
Well what do you think then?

OMG You are right.

Births:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Joseph Patrick Joyce
Name: Joseph Patrick Joyce
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Andrew Joyce
Name: Andrew Joyce
Year of Registration: 1872
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 243 (click to see others on page)

District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 311 (click to see others on page)

Well what a turn up for the books. Well done, Susan for being so vigilant. What gave you the hint?

So that now gives you a definite reference for the birth of a child, to see if the father is Andrew Joyce.

So exciting to get here!

EDith Ellen is a Glithero:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Edith Ellen Glithero
Name: Edith Ellen Glithero
Year of Registration: 1874
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 274 (click to see others on page)

This could be Sarah

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Sarah Rebecca Glithero
Name: Sarah Rebecca Glithero
Year of Registration: 1869
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Manchester (1837-1924)
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 297 (click to see others on page)

There is no Sarah Joyce.