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...what a confusing family...?...thank you so much LadyKira

I ave still not found anything to confirm either 1911 is correct.

We were looking for timber porter for Frederick before.

The 1911 posted at the beginning of this thread also fits with being a gas fitter.

The 1891 I posted and the 1911 also make the marriage 1877 fitting in with the Emma Crowe marriage.

Edwin Crowe comes from Norfolk but I have not found anything to connect him to Emma or Emma with father Arthur.

1891 gives Emma a birthplace o f London.
:-S :-S :-S :-S :-S

ok will follow that through tonight.

THANK YOU sooooooo much...!!...That's FANTASTIC....!!...Your help and all your time spent searching for this family is really appreciated....So my thoughts are confimed that Frederick born in 1893 really did have an older brother Arthur. Also that my family vaguely remember Arthur (apparentley Arthur worked as a park keeper Victoria Park ). I really did have the smallest amount of info possible on Frederick my grandfather. Your help once again is truly appreciated...and i am really excited with the info you have found...THANK YOU...!!

a possible atlast

1891 5, Bernales Buildings, Old Court, Shoreditch, London
SMITH, William Head Married M 32 1859 Brass Finisher
London, Bishop Street VIEW
SMITH, Emma Wife Married F 33 1858 Trouser Maker
London, Pall Street VIEW
SMITH, Florence Daughter F 12 1879
Shoreditch, London VIEW
SMITH, James Son M 11 1880
Clerkenwell, London VIEW
SMITH, William Son M 9 1882
Shoreditch, London VIEW
SMITH, Mary Daughter F 3 1888
Shoreditch, London VIEW
SMITH, Arthur Son M 0 (8M) 1891
Islington, London

I have had a closer look at the marriage of William to emma Crowe and notice one of them is Edwin Crowe.

Could be this one.

1881 Address: 2, Huntingdon Bldgs, Bethnal Green
CROWE, Edwin Head Married M 29 1852 Tailor
London, Middlesex
CROWE, Louisa Wife Married F 30 1851
London, Middlesex
CROWE, Jessie L Daughter Single F 9 1872 Scholar
London, Middlesex
CROWE, Anne E Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
London, Middlesex
CROWE, Florence E Daughter Single F 4 1877
London, Middlesex
CROWE, Edwin W Son Single M 2 1879
London, Middlesex
CROWE, George E Son Single M 0 1881
London, Middlesex

Parents:
Marriages Dec 1877
CROWE Emma Bethnal Green 1c 494
SMITH William Bethnal Green 1c 494

Emma?
Births Jun 1855
Crowe Emma Shoreditch 1c 109
Births Jun 1860
CROWE Emma Mary S* Hackney 1b 319

I just realised we had been looking two Emma Crowes.
one married to Edward and one to William.

You posted
HUGE APOLOGIES TO ALL...!!..I am so so sorry,
Frederick John Smith's father is William Smith ....

on Fredericks marraige cert it states age 23yrs living at 23 Candy Street
( his father is not dec'd)
it states his father as William Smith Labourer.

On Frederick John birth cert it states born 13/3/1893 Haggerston...his father is William Smith (Gasfitter Labourer ) and his mother as Emma Smith formally Crowe of
3 New Inn Yard

.Emma Smith Shoredithch Infermary Hoxton Street Haggerston...
.oh dear...maybe I have to start again with looking ....once again so sorry for all this confusion...but a huge THANK YOU for all your time and to you all for being so helpful....I only hope I can start afresh with all this...!!

Christine Report 20 Jan 2012 14:46
Hi , ...just had to give this a rest for a while...I was getting sooooo confused...lol...but thank you for your help.
.I can confirm that Frederick is my grandfather.
The info you gave reagarding Candy Street Old Ford Bow E3....
all checks out...YIPEE...!!
Everything is acccurate regarding the Hummsand Leary's

Now I just need to confirm where Frederick and his father William are in the 1911 and 1901 census...

(he deserted my mum when she was 11yrs old ) and she lived with the Humms and Learys). Very little is known of him, but he just appears to be very elusive. Your help is greatly appreciated, kind regards Chris



Does it say Crowe on the birth certificate?

British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
about William Charles Leary
Name:William Charles Leary
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1883
Age at enlistment18
Birth Parish:Stepney
Birth County:Middlesex
Document Year:1901
Regimental Number:57657
Regiment Name:Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery
Number of images:8


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Charles Leary
Name:William Charles Leary
Age:30
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1880
Spouse Name:Eliza Humm
Spouse Age:39
Record Type:Marriage
Marriage Date:19 Jul 1910
Parish:St Paul, Old Ford
County:London
Borough:Tower Hamlets
Father Name:Edward Leary

Spouse Father Name:Edward Higgs

I still do not think the Emma Crowe marriage is yours. Neither parents nor occupations match.

Assuming that the smith Humm marriage is correct and not getting anywhere with Frederick I decided to search for one of the witnesses at that wedding.

William Charles Leary


British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
about William Charles Leary
Name:William Charles Leary
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1882
Age at enlistment:32
Birth Parish:Stepney
Birth County:London
Document Year:1914
Regimental Number:8069
Regiment Name:R F A D
Number of images:6

In answer to the question on residence he says he has lived at his father's house for more than 3 years
23 Candy Street Old Ford

Ah looks like he is connected to the Humm family

1911 census - household transcription
Person: LEARY, William
Address: 34 Appian Road Bow
LEARY, Edward Charles Head Widower M 78 1833 Spitafields
LEARY, William Son Married M 31 1880 Wood Barker Stepney
LEARY, Eliza Daughter In Law Married F 40 1871 Stepney
HUMM, William Son Single M 23 1888 Cork Cutter Bethnal Green
HUMM, Lena Daughter Single F 21 1890 Basket Maker Fruit Bethnal Green
HUMM, John Son Single M 18 1893 Trunk Maker Bethnal Green
HUMM, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 16 1895 Basket Maker Fruit Bethnal Green
LEARY, Florence Daughter Of Head Single F 24 1887 Gum Picker Bethnal Green

1891 census - household transcription
Person: LEARY, William
Address: 23, Sidney Street, Bethnal Green, London, North East Bethnal Green
LEARY, Edward Head Married M 42 1849 Silk Spinner
Spitalfield
LEARY, Elizabeth Wife Married F 51 1840
Bethnal Green
LEARY, John Son Single M 21 1870 Tinman
Stepney
LEARY, George Son M 19 1872 Umbrella Frame Maker
Stepney
LEARY, William Son M 10 1881 Scholar
Bethnal Green
LEARY, Florance Daughter F 6 1885 Scholar
Bethnal Green
He married Eliza Humm widow 10 07 1910 so would be Elizabeth's step father

His father was William not Edward.

I think this could be Fredericks brother who probly died young.


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frederick Smith
Name:Frederick Smith
Record Type:Baptism
Estimated Birth Date:abt 1886
Baptism Date:30 Apr 1886
Father's name:William Smith
Mother's name:Emma Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union:Shoreditch St James
Borough:Hackney

Address is 1 New Inn Street

Arrrgh no I have just realised you are still confused.


This is the Frederick we confirmed is yours.

There is a baptism 30 march 1893
for

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Frederic John Smith Name: Frederic John Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1893
Baptism Date: 30 Mar 1893
Father's name: William Smith
Mother's name: Emma Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney

father is a gas fitter

address looks like 3 newing yard

Name: Frederick John Smith
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1893
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Humm
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Apr 1915
Parish: St Mark, Victoria Park
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Smith - labourer
Spouse Father Name: Robert Humm boot maker
Address for both23 Candy street
witnesses William Charles Leary
Elizabeth Searle

This was the probable 1911 entry with Ellen being mistranscribed at some stage.
1911 Address: 11 Antwerp St the Broadway London Fields
SMITH, Ellen Head Widow F 48 1863 Char Woman Shoreditch
SMITH, Frederick Son Single M 20 1891 Timber Porter Shoreditch

We spent a long time looking for 1901 but could not identify him for certain.

THANK YOU ...!!...for all this info....and please accept my apologies for not using the existing thread....I cannot thank you enough...!!... :-D

and http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/971370

It is best you keep to one thread so as not to duplicate work. With the information on the other thread we could have saved ourselves lots of work,

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1210224

Emma Crowe.... I think that was the one I did research on.

Let me see if I can find it.

James and Maria in 1891
Name: James Smith
Age: 76
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Maria Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Scotland

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green North
ED, institution, or vessel: 9b
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 258
Folio: 37
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
James Smith 76
Maria Smith 69
Florence Smith 12


?Warner Place

Name: Maria Elizabeth Smith
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 30 Apr 1848
Father's Name: James Smith - Tailor
Mother's Name: Maria Smith
Parish or Poor Law Union: Limehouse St Anne
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Maria Elizabeth Smith
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Henry James Smith b. Norwich
Spouse Age: 28
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 31 Jul 1870
Parish: Walworth St Peter
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: James Smith - Tailor
Spouse Father Name: Robert Smith
Register Type: Parish Register

was hoping that the rest of the family night be living nearby , so tracked on censuses but no luck

1871
SMITH, Thomas Head M 56 1815 Scotland TAILOR
SMITH, William Son M 13 1858 Middlesex
SMITH, Margaret Daughter F 11 1860 Middlesex
SMITH, Caroline Daughter F 8 1863 Middlesex
SMITH, Edith Daughter F 5 1866 Middlesex

Piece: 504

Folio: 32

Page: 28

Registration District: Whitechapel

Civil Parish: Old Artillery Ground

Municipal Borough:

Address: Duke St, Old Artillery Ground

County: London, Middlesex


1861
SMITH, Francis Head Married M 46 1815 Tailor
Leith, Scotland
SMITH, Maria Wife Married F 40 1821 Tailoress
Wapping, Middlesex
SMITH, Maria Daughter Unmarried F 13 1848 Scholar
Stepney, Middlesex
SMITH, Elizabeth Daughter Unmarried F 8 1853 Scholar
Islington, Middlesex
SMITH, William Son Unmarried M 3 1858
City London, Middlesex
SMITH, Margaret Daughter Unmarried F 1 1860
London City, Middlesex

Piece: 229

Folio: 39

Page: 3

Registration District: London City

Civil Parish: St Katherine Cree

Municipal Borough: City of London

Address: 5, Cree Crurch Lane, St Katherine Cree, City Of London

County: London

1881

SMITH, James Head Married M 66 1815 Tailor
Leith, Scotland VIEW
SMITH, Maria Wife Married F 59 1822
St Georges E., Middlesex VIEW
SMITH, Margaret Daughter Single F 21 1860 Bookbinder (Maker)
London, City OF, Middlesex VIEW
SMITH, Caroline Daughter Single F 18 1863 Book Folder (Binder)
London, City OF, Middlesex VIEW
SMITH, Florence Grand Daughter Single F 3 1878
Shoreditch, Middlesex VIEW

Piece: 387

Folio: 42

Page: 23

Registration District: Shoreditch

Civil Parish: Shoreditch

Municipal Borough:

Address: 167, Gladstone Bdgs, Shoreditch

County: London, Middlesex