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Officially annoyed! I had carefully put together a lovely long post and it got 'absorbed' into the ether. So I'll try again now.

Thank you very much ChrisHo:) for the article about Ashfield House. I've contacted the present owners of this lovely old house and we have swapped our histories about the house. I love to swap these snippets. Am also hoping that the local archives may have more about the house ...............

I'm puzzled about the below which ChrisHo added at the top of this page:
"06 April 1850 - Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser
PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED
Hervey and Lascelles, Neston, Cheshire, schoolmistresses
(another dated 15th April, Janet Hervey, Frances Lascelles, Neston, Cheshire schoolmistresses. Debts received and paid by Hervey)"
Is this the complete newspaper article or is there more to be seen?
And the reason that I'm slightly puzzled is that the Head School Mistress CHRISTINA HERVEY didn't die until 24th June of that year, yet it looks as if the School was already in the process of being wound up. Perhaps her DC which I have ordered may shed some light on this; perhaps she was already ill ..... Will add the info from her DC when I get it.

I am officially going to have to more or less ignore the Marshall branch of the family as mentioned above because I already have so much on my plate to do with the narrower line. But thank you all the same.

I have all the Hervey Kibble stuff already. And as it happens Sarah Kibble and her son James are buried in Buglawton graveyard in the adjacent grave to my GGGAunt Violet May Besant, nee Hervey. We were clearing the Besant grave with all its wonderful engraved grave kerbs when we almost tripped over the Kibble headstone. Extraordinary. And that revelation led to me being offered the Kibble family bible ..............

Erin: the Marshall will proved by my GGGrandfather Robert Kibble Hervey, Barrister just wonderfully ties together all the research. He was a very good looking man - photographs prove this - and after his first wife died my GGGmother, he married his 19 year old Ward of Court when he was 70+!! After his death in Montreux, she remarried and we and them have been family friends for many, many years.

Absolutely wonderful to have nailed the first wife's name of James Hervie as Jean Winning. All my ancient family notes and trees do not name her and I'd always wondered what the name of my 4x GGrandmother was. This is a super piece of info. Thank you.

GlasgowLass and the Hervey sisters JANE, JANET AND ?MARY?: we knew that Jane and Janet were living in Brewood after the school closed down because, amazingly, they are mentioned in the write-up in the Cheetham's Register where their younger half brother THOMAS KIBBLE HERVEY was a schoar (and other Hervey's/Law's/Booth's in our family, too - a brainy lot!). The article was written by the son of the outgoing headmaster Jeremiah Smith and son writes that his father retired to his 'home' in Brewood and also that his father allowed two sisters of TKH to live in a house in the village also from "c.1848-c.1854". Isn't that a helpful piece he's delivered to us! But I cannot get my ancestry to find any of the Hervey sisters after the easy 1841 record; is this a case of the 'Hervey' surname being mistranscribed again? PLEASE give me a pointer on these so I can get them up for myself.

Thank you all, as always.
Am trying to add a big smile, but site isn't complying.







:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

1850 Friday, March 29.

http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/30th-march-1850/20/commercial-gazette

(as same notice on above, from google search)

Chris :)

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Partnership
between the undersigned, Janet Hervey and Frances--
Lascelles in the business, or occupation of Schoolmistresses,
at Neston, in the county of Chester, under the firm of
Hervey and Lascelles, was this day dissolved by mutual
consent, and in future the Suhool will be carried on by the
said Janet Hervey on her separate account, and who will
pay and receive all debts owing from and to the said partnership.—
Witness our hands this 22nd day of March 1850;
Janet Hervey.
, : Frances Lascelles. - - : ^

Nicola this is from The London Gazette page 943 29th March 1850 as you can see Janet carried on running the school.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/21081/page/943

(just been looking round on Gazettes Online, same as Egb found)

Chris :)

(no idea if below)

Baptism: 9 Sep 1818 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Frances Lassells - [Child] of James Lassells & Frances
Abode: St Ann's St
Occupation: Professor of Dancing
Baptised by: J. Pulford Curate
Register: Baptisms 1818 - 1819, Page 135, Entry 1402
Source: LDS Film 1656378

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

(1841/51 Liverpool, but also a Frances Lascelles 1851 Pershore, Mistress of Girls School, but says Born 1832, and 1841 London, Father Honourable William Lascelles) (looks perhaps to be Lady Caroline Lascelles for his wife)

Nicola ..I am getting as bad as you...I knew somewhere I had seen record of Janet and Jane in 1851..well after spending the entire morning looking have found it...Its on this thread !!!!
GlasgowLass 10 May 12.02..they are with the MARSHALLS did you not notice when you read through she has also listed where they were in 1861 and when Jane was in the Asylum in Taunton. My own thread 12 May10.57 shows Janet down as MARSHALL !!!

Nicola...Have found the following relating to the 1st marriage of James Hervey Merchant (Glasgow)..may just round off that part of the "History"

Hervey James Merchant (Burgess and Guild Brethren) married Jean 1st daughter of William Winning Tailor (B.and GB) Glasgow 2nd February 1781

The above is from Scottish Record Society (Edinburgh)

Nicola...Can you recall your query about the when you were trying to identify what was written on a gravestone..."TINE" or something similar...I cannot locate the thread.....


EDiT...Found it (2009)

Thank you ChrisHo for that extra on 'the girls' and to Erin ditto.

And also Erin: yes, I'd seen those census entries for 'the girls' but really wanted to get them up for myself so that I could pore over them. Still can't get my ancestry to cough - are they under 'Hervey', or one of the other corruptions of that name??? I really want to see these for myself, if poss.

And Erin again: fantastic to have nailed my Jean Winning at long, long last. But - what on earth does 'Burgess and Build Brethren' mean? I must be terribly ignorant, I think.

And Erin again, again: 'TINE' has never really left my wonderings all this time, so I wonder why it's still in your helpful mind as well? This weekend, I was tackling yet more family notes which have been buried under so much 'stuff' and I found that my dear Great Aunt [died a few years ago aged 104 and the one who pulled together so much of the notes/trees/letters etc for posterity] has typed the following at the top of one of her 'trees':
"Col. H.E.D. Bayley (d 1916)
m. Frances Adelaide Tine (or Frances Fitzgerald? d.1914)"
and so on.
Now HEDB and FAF and deffo my Great Great Grandparents with lovely photos and histories attached. It's so unlike my Great Aunt to not know her own Grandmother's full name - she was sharp as a tack right up until the last and VERY involved in family matters. Nevertheless, there is a little clue about the curious word on the headstone which I had raised in my post way back in 2009! Still don't think we shall ever know the details behind it - unless, long shot, TINE is an Irish nickname/endearment/other ?????????????????? Frances came from a prominent Irish family.

Back to the expert, please.
:-D

(is below on a 'Thread' somewhere, really don't want to repeat!, but if any help)

Chris :)


Entry from Transcription of Madras Marriage Indexes 1851 - 1870
Marriage Year 1863
Husband First Names Henry E D
Husband Surname Bayley
Wife First Names Frances A
Wife Surname FitzGerald
Prefix N/2
Volume Number 44
Folio 112
LDS Film Reference 521852
IOR Reference Z/N/2
Transcribed by Kerrie Farmer

http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/

(Families in British India Society)


Deaths Mar 1914 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Bayley Frances A 79 Steyning 2b 371


Name: Henry Elliott Dashwood BAYLEY
Event type: Biography
Start date: 27 May
Start year: 1840
End date: 01 Jul
End year:1916
Biographical notes:
Madras Army, b 27 May 1840, ret 5 Jun 1892, d 1 Jul 1916; m (1) Frances Adelaide 7 Apr 1863 (b 5 Feb 1834, d 4 Jan Isabella Oakes b 24 Mar 1864, d 23 Aug 1925; 1914) Fanny Adelaide b 10 Apr 1865; Henry Elliott Dashwood b 10 May & d 14 Jun 1866; Mary Anne b 14 Sep 1867, d 1 Jul 1868; James Harrington Montague b 6 Sep 1869, d 13 Sep 1875; Edith Kathleen b 9 Oct 1870, m 5 Feb 1891; Alice Eileen b 23 Jan 1872, d 10 Mar 1885; Ethel Amy b 12 Sep 1874; William Arthur b 25 May 1878; m (2) Gertrude 16 Feb 1915 (b 14 Jun 1846, d 28 Jan 1929)

Transcribed by: British Library
India Office Records Reference: L/AG/23/10/1-2
Source name:

http://indiafamily.bl.uk/ui/AdvanceDiscovery.aspx


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1285705?page=0

(relates to above. William Barry Fitzgerald)

Nicola.....I remember well the Dublin Soc.Ladies !! Had great full researching them back in the day...where have the years gone....TINE came to mind whilst I was up in the Highlands and Islands looking for something and the surname SINE jumped out ...never came across it before.

This link will explain Burgess and Guild Brethren

https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Scotland_Occupations

Thank you both again.

And I STILL can't get up the Hervey gals in their subsequent census entries - is it me? Ancestry just doesn't cough.

Nicola I don't use Ancestry or FMP so don't know what is wrong...have you tried using Mary Marshall's name instead ?
On Family Search..1851 has Jane and Janet 's surname as Hewey

1861.. Gloucestershire St Caths.Kingholm she is down as Jane Kerney

1871..Worcestershire Whistones she is down as Jane Marshall

Sp you can access all from Familysearch.org

Fantastic! TVM. Now I'm getting somewhere.
So now I've got the gals in 1851 in Brewood and corrected HEWEY to HERVEY.
Working on the rest now.
Tvvvm.

Have at last managed to get Janet in the 1861.
Whew!
And now I don't feel quite so stupid about the 1871 census because Janet has been transcribed as JACOB. And the Enumerator has listed her as Jacob H. Marshall, i.e., taken her 'real' surname of Hervey and attached it to her sister's married surname of Marshall. AND listed her with a male first name in the female column - doncha just love family history research ..........................
:-D
Edit: looking back, I see that clever GlasgowLass also revealed that poor Janet was mistranscribed as Jacob in the 1871. There's so much to take on board with all of this, but It is all being painstakingly typed into the Family History records by me I promise. It will all be shared with cousins on a family holiday soon - they'll be very interested.
:-D

Update:
I have Christian's/Christina's DC in front of me now.

She died on 24th June 1850 and her first name is CLEARLY written as CHRISTIAN, aged 65, daughter of James Hervey, Merchant (deceased). So it all adds up and is deffo the right gal.

However, her cause of death is an odd one and I've tried googling it without success. It states 'Scirrus. 5 years. Certified'. The writing is very clear - makes a nice change - but I can get nothing up on what s.c.i.r.r.u.s. might be. Any medicos out there, please?
:-)

Scirrhus - Cancerous tumors

http://www.comportone.com/cpo/genealogy/articles/names_illinesses.htm

(from above, Old Names for
Illnesses and Causes of Death)

Chris :)

Amazing CH - don't know how you do it!

How on earth did you come up with that website? Gruesome. I did look on it for another ancestor of mine's cause of death but it didn't come up. She died of 'Pre Confinement Fever' and I have always assumed that the poor thing had pre-eclampsia. Amazingly, although she died three days after the birth of her third child, the baby survived and went on to lead a healthy life.

Tidying up some loose ends

GL's post 10/5/16 12:24
There's a missing page on Ancestry.

It would have helped to know the census refs of the two adjacent pages, which are:

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1541; Folio: 185; Page: 34; GSU etc.
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1541; Folio: 186; Page: 35; GSU etc.

To get an adjacent page, I normally just adjust the page number. If this fails, I then similarly adjust the folio number too.

Ancestry & FMP both allow searches by census ref, and they yield a page-full of names.
You do have to use the search page specific to the 1871 census, viz:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=7619
or
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/1871-england-wales-and-scotland-census

FMP gets 25 hits with
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 1541; Folio: 186; Page: 35; GSU etc.

including:
First name(s) Last name Birth year Birth county Registration district Parish County
Alice C Marshall 1856 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire
Edgar Marshall 1857 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire
Henry Marshall 1821 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire
Mary C Marshall 1836 — Bedford St Paul Bedfordshire

With this info I can find the family on FS:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFF3-F29
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFF3-TKT

England and Wales Census, 1871
Household ID 242
Event Place St Paul, Bedfordshire, England
Enumeration District 8
Entry Number 22-25 and 1-12
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/1541/0374
Henry Marshall Head M 50 Mauritius
Mary C Marshall Wife F 35 Mauritius [Retired]
Alice C Marshall Daughter F 15
Edgar Marshall Son M 14
Louisa Marshall Daughter F 13 Calcutta, East India [Scholar]
Ethel Marshall Daughter F 11 Paignton, Deoon
William A Marshall Son M 10 Miserden, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Marshall Daughter F 8 Lymington, Hampshire
Edward Marshall Son M 6 Hordle, Hampshire
Herbert Marshall Son M 5 Hordle, Hampshire
Ada Marshall Daughter F 2 Bedford, Bedfordshire
Frances Marshall Niece F 19 Adelaide, New South Wales
Maria Sheppard Boarder F 26 Boulden, Hampshire
Elizabeth Marriott Servant F 25 Bedford, Bedfordshire
Sarah Humphrey Servant F 20 Bedford, Bedfordshire
Susan Pope Servant F 20 Eynesbury, Huntingdonshire

Nicola - Re: [9/5/16 20:08] 'It reads that James Hervey senior was living in Kippen Parish, Perthshire when his son, also James, was born. James senior "farmed his own land". James junior "helped on the farm and was sent to Glasgow into a bank - probably that of Mr. Carrick, a relative". It reads that James junior "came to Manchester in 1802" where he was "later a drysalter and also was agent for the Atlas Insurance Office from the time it was established".'

GlasgowLass [10/5/16 00:22] is correct when she says "Kippen is actually in Stirlingshire", but that's present tense.

Ordnance Gazetteer of Scotland
Edited by Francis H. Groome (1892-6)
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/
has 1890's maps showing parishes of every Scottish county.
Here is an excerpt from the entry for Kippen:
"The parish ... lies all compact on the S side of the Forth, and was partly in Perthshire until 1891, when the Boundary Commissioners placed the parish wholly in Stirlingshire. ... its area is 11331.5 acres, of which 76 are water, and 4966.5 belonged to the two Perthshire sections - the smaller containing Cauldhame and the larger Arnprior."
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/gazetteer/images/vol4page412.jpg

I first got suspicious when I looked up Harvie (with phonetic variants) in 1841 Kippen on FreeCEN, and saw 13 pob=Pert and 26 pob=Stirlingshire, plus 5 Outside census county.
Although I know of no relationship to your mob, I had to use some name, so here's a couple of examples:

1841 Census
Piece: SCT1841/484 Place: Kippen -Stirlingshire Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Kippen Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Perth
Folio: 0 Page: 4
Address: Shirgarton
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HARVEY Andrew M 30 Wright Perth
HARVEY Eliz F 25 Outside Census County (1841)
HARVEY Mary F 1 Perth
HARVEY George M 3m Perth

1841 Census
Piece: SCT1841/484 Place: Kippen -Stirlingshire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kippen Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Kippen
Folio: 297 Page: 6
Address: Kippen
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HARVIE Agnes F 65 Independent Stirlingshire
BUCHANAN Ann F 25 Female Servant Stirlingshire
COWAN Agnes F 9 Stirlingshire
KIRK John, The Rev M 30 Minister Hamilton Outside Census County (1841)

Shirgarton is just 300m WNW of Kippen parish church, near to which (presumably) Rev Kirk lives
Cauldhame is 600m WSW of the church.

Kippen Parish Church
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1687719
Subject Location NS 650 948 [100m precision]

Old graveyard, Kippen
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1750416
Subject Location NS 651 948 [100m precision]
Photographer Location NS 652 949

Since the photographer was further E and further N, the pic was taken lookibg SW

The old style OS coordinate measures the easting, and the northing (in metres) from the zero datum point 130km WSW off Lands End.
This point is chosen so that all land in Great Britain and its islands gets a positive easting, so the longitude datum line is set by St Kilda & Soay some 70km off North Uist, and the latitude datum line is set by the Scilly Isles.

If I go to http://www.streetmap.co.uk/ and look up, say, Arnprior, and select the "Town", it takes me to some URL.
Embedded in that URL one can see: x=261323&y=694940
The old style OS coords are 261323,694940 and this is where the tip of the arrow is on Streetmap.
One can also look up 261323,694940 or NS 61323 94940 and get exactly the same map.
NS are the magic letters for the 2xxxxx,3xxxxx pair.
The newer,Landranger style, coords allow lesser precisions, such as:
NS 6132 9494 (with 10m precision) - here streetmap places the arrow tip in the middle of the imprecision square; or
NS 613 949 (with 100m precision); or even NS 61 94 (with 1km precision).
The spaces are optional, but help readability.

The blue grid lines on the map are 1km apart.
Arngibbon Burn (just N of Arnprior and named on the zoom level 3 map) forms the PER-STI border here.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/74488741 shows the W bondary of the Arnprior chunk.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74489034 shows the E bondary of the Arnprior chunk and the entire Cauldhame chunk.

However, for some geographic details, you need the largest scale
http://maps.nls.uk/os/25inch/index.html
[I say largest scale - this is true country wide, but one can find some city plans at an even larger scale]



FYI
"Monumental inscriptions (pre-1855) in West Stirlingshire", John F Mitchell & Sheila Mitchell, published Edinburgh, 1973 (Scottish Genealogy Society).
I found an omline copy via the FS catalog:
https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE2130770
(Maybe it's time of day, but it took a while to load - but downloading the loaded version would cure that thereafter.
Kippen on images 92-99 (of 113))

There's also a companion vol:
Monumental inscriptions pre 1855 in East Stirlingshire
by John Fowler Mitchell and Sheila Mitchell
https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE2192724
The same authors have 2 vols on Perth, but only the south is online
Monumental inscriptions, pre 1855 in South Perthshire; pt. 1
https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE3443721

We've been away and only just returned. Wouldn't want any of you to think I was ignoring you - as if ............

But got a very busy week and more ahead, so will try my best to read up on all your very helpful aboves as soon as possible.

"I'll be back". :-D