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I am trying to find info on my father John Charles Firmin born Feb 5 1914 . His mother was Daisy Ann Potter Danson (maiden name).He was born in Chatham England ( I think)

There is a tree on Ancestry.
Born Chatham Kent England
died 13 Aug 1982 • Semans, Saskatchewan

?

Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
DANSON Daisy Ann P Elham 2a 2373 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
HADFIELD Albert William Elham 2a 2373
HOLLAND Beatrice Annie Elham 2a 2373
THORNHILL Arthur Elham 2a 2373

Was she married before then??

Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
DANSON Daisy Ann P Elham 2a 2373 Scan available - click to view
HADFIELD Albert William Elham 2a 2373 Scan available - click to view



1911 Census For England & Wales
The Yard Cottage Darlington Street Folkestone, Folkestone, Kent, England

Daisy Ann Potter Hadfield's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Albert William Hadfield Head Married Male 33 1878 Porter Kent Cheriton
Daisy Ann Potter Hadfield Wife Married Female 29 1882 - Kent Dover
Albert William Hadfield Son - Male 1 1910 - Kent Folkestone

Dea x

Births Dec 1911 (>99%)
Hadfield Rhodesia D Danson Elham 2a 2048 Scan available - click to view

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Jun 1913 (>99%)
Hadfield Arthur G Danson Elham 2a 2248 Scan available - click to viewPostem available - click to view


Not sure how the Firmin name fits in here??

Dea x

Marriages Sep 1927 (>99%)
Hadfield Daisy A P Truman St.Thomas 5b 129 Scan available - click to view
Truman Charles Hadfield St.Thomas 5b 129 Scan available - click to view


Truman Household (2 People) 20 New Street , Exmouth U.D., Devon, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Occupation
Daisy A P Truman 05 Feb 1884 Unpaid Domestic Duties
Charlie Truman 16 Mar 1874 Carpenter Retired

Still no sign of a 'Firmin' and no Firmin child of that name born in 1914 in the UK ???

More info needed please..............


Dea x

John Charles Firmin
New Brunswick Provincial Marriages 1789-1950

Name: John Charles Firmin
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 11 May 1940
Event Place: , Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
Gender: Male
Age: 26
Birth Year (Estimated): 1914
Father's Name: John C Firmin
Mother's Name: Daisy A Danson
Spouse's Name: Mabel Lydia Murray
Spouse's Gender: Female
Spouse's Age: 31
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1909
Spouse's Father's Name: Walter Murray
Spouse's Mother's Name: Laura Newman
Certificate Number: 18499

John Charles Firmin
United States Border Crossings from Canada to United States, 1895-1956

Name: John Charles Firmin
Arrival Date: 22 Feb 1938
Arrival Port: Buffalo, New York,
Age: 23
Birth Year (Estimated): 1915
Birthplace: , Chatham Kent
Birth Country: England
Gender: Male
Race: English
Photograph Included: N

John Charles Firmin
New York, Northern Arrival Manifests, 1902-1956

Name: John Charles Firmin
Event Type: Immigration
Event Date: 1938
Event Place: New York, United States
Gender: Male
Age: 23
Birth Year (Estimated): 1915
Birthplace: Chatham Kent England
Ship Name: Dutchess Of York

Was he a home child?

Item: John Charles FIRMIN (123349)
Given Name(s):
John Charles
Surname:
FIRMIN
Gender:
M
Age:
16
Year of Arrival:
1929
Ship:
DUCHESS OF YORK
Date of Departure:
1929-08-01
Port of Departure:
Liverpool
Date of Arrival:
1929-08-08
Port of Arrival:
Quebec
Party:
England
Destination:
Montreal, Quebec
Children travelling together:
Q29FQ
Comments:
45 lads to the British Immigration and Colonization Association Hostel in Montreal.
Type of Records:
Passenger Lists
Page Number:
56
Volume Number:
18
Microfilm Reel Number:
T-14757
Reference:
RG 76 C1a
Source:
Library and Archives Canada
Database Item Number:
123349

On that 1938 border crossing he says that he arrived in Canada 8/10/28 aboard the Duchess of York.

John Firman Snr's army records show year of birth for John Jnr. as 1915 !! ??
John Snr. was married to Margaret:

Marriages Dec 1902 (>99%)
Brunton Margaret Mitford 4b 706 Scan available - click to view
Firman John Mitford 4b 706 Scan available - click to view


This is Margaret + family on 1911:

Record Transcription:
1911 Census For England & Wales
1 Adcock Square, East Dereham, Norfolk, England

Margaret Firmin's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Edward Brunton Head Married Male 57 1854 Labourer Dereham Nfk
Margaret Brunton Wife Married Female 49 1862 - Dereham Nfk
Eliza Brunton Daughter Single Female 29 1882 Home Dereham Nfk
Margaret Firmin Daughter Married Female 27 1884 At Home Dereham Nfk
Edward Brunton Grandson - Male 14 1897 School Toftwood Nfk
Florence Brunton Granddaughter - Female 12 1899 School Toftwood Nfk
Margaret Brunton Granddaughter - Female 10 1901 School Toftwood Nfk
William Firmin Stepson (I think it says 'Grandson' ) - Male 3 1908 - Dereham Nfk
Margaret Firmin's Census Details
Details taken from the original census record.


Dea x

The 1929 voyage record says his occupation in the UK was "Golf Links Assistant" .

Mother: Daisy A Truman, 20 New Street, Exmouth.
And there's a note - "Mother remarried".




John Firmin senior's 1915 army record, which gives John Charles's DOB as 15 Feb 1915, says the DOB was "Verified from declaration of wife".
What does that signify ?? Presumably she was just acknowledging that John Charles was her husband's son.


John senior, born Bethnal Green, had originally joined the army in October 1888, when his record says he was aged 20 years 5 months.
He'd been working as a painter for Mr Taylor in East Dereham for 5 years (or was an apprentice).
NOK: Father, John, East Dereham.
In 1896 he was transferred to the Army Reserve, and intended to return to East Dereham.
Rejoined the army in 1898, and served in South Africa 1899 - 1901.
Discharged 1/10/1901, when he received South African War Gratuities.

So he would be abroad with the army in 1901.
But where is he in 1911, when Margaret is with her parents ?

He joined the army again in 1915.
Where is he between 1902 and 1915 - apart from having a dalliance with Daisy.



With his parents in 1881, but presumably away with the army in 1891 and 1901:

John Firman
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Firman
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: John Firman
Mother: Mary Firman
Gender: Male
Where born: London B Green, London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: East Dereham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street address: London Road
Registration district: Mitford
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors:
Piece: 1979
Folio: 77
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
John Firman 39
Mary Firman 44
John Firman 13
Benjamine Firman 12
Agnes Firman 9
William Firman 6:


??

John Charles Firman
in the Norfolk, England, Register of Electors, 1832-1915
Name: John Charles Firman
Event Year: 1905
Event Place: East Dereham, Norfolk, England
Division: Mid division
Film Number: 001597020

His death ?? Maybe this has something to do with John junior going to Canada in 1929 ?? Father dead, mother with new husband 1927.

John C Firmin
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: John C Firmin
Death Age: 54
Birth Date: abt 1869
Registration Date: Dec 1923
Registration district: Derby
Inferred County: Derbyshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 615

EDIT:

Yes, this death is correct.
See my post on 1st Feb @ 10:45

Looks like John & Daisy were in Hampshire in 1914 'pretending' to be a 'respectable married couple' :

At the Police-court, on Tuesday. before Mr. E. J. Baker, a respectably dressed married couple, named John and Daisy Firman, pleaded guilty to begging at Petersfield on Monday.—P.C. Arnold gave evidence, and said prisoners obtained Is. from......
06 November 1914 - Hampshire Telegraph - Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Full article can be seen here:

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/88313024


Dea x

I love that! "Respectably dressed married couple".

No mention of a child in that report, so presumably John Charles wasn't yet born, and the 1915 birth date is correct(ish).

As John senior and Margaret were acknowledging his existence in 1915, it doesn't look as if he'd been handed over to Barnardos or other institution, so I'd guess he remained with Daisy.

As Margaret is mentioned on John senior's army record, and had been asked about John junior, does that mean John had gone back to Margaret during 1915, I wonder?


But there's still no sign of John junior's birth, under any of the possible surnames, at least not with mms Danson.

...and where are Daisy's other children?

One of them as an 'added note' envelope on freebmd site.

The newspaper story does link the couple back to Kent.

I'm confused by all the surnames, but could see that FIRMAN and TRUMAN could look like each other in some written script.

Copying Daisy's marriages again for ease of reference:


Marriages Dec 1908 (>99%)
DANSON Daisy Ann P Elham 2a 2373
HADFIELD Albert William Elham 2a 2373


Marriages Sep 1927 (>99%)
Hadfield Daisy A P Truman St.Thomas 5b 129
Truman Charles Hadfield St.Thomas 5b 129


And her death:

Daisy A P Truman
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Daisy A P Truman
Death Age: 81
Birth Date: abt 1883
Registration Date: Jun 1964
Registration district: Exeter
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 7a
Page: 386

Truman on image, mistranscribed:


Daisy A P Terman
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Daisy A P Terman
Gender: Female
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 5 Feb 1884
Residence Year: 1939
Residence Place: Exmouth, Devon, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Schedule Number: 58
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: WFKI
Registration district: 270/1.
Inferred Spouse: Charles Terman
Household Members:
Name
Charles Terman [ Charlie on image ]
Daisy A P Terman

Daisy's son Albert William Hadfield married in Elham in 1935, and in 1939 he's in Sunbury-on-Thames with wife, two children, and probably a sister-in-law.

But goodness knows where he was between 1911 and 1935.
He could still have been with Daisy.

Looks like Daisy's first husband's death:

Albert Hadfield
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Albert Hadfield
Death Age: 46
Birth Date: abt 1881
Registration Date: Mar 1927
Registration district: Elham
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 1942