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This is the John E Vernon born 1921 on the 1939 register, as you can see not in Liverpool,

John E Vernon's life in 1939
6 Spa Well Thomas Street, Elland U.D., Yorkshire (West Riding), England

Fretwell household
(4 people)
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth year DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Robert W Fretwell 1909 07 Jan 1909 Male Kelm Fever Brickwork Heavy Work Married 145 1
Annie (B) Fretwell 1896 08 Jun 1896 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 145 2
The record for this person is officially closed. Can I get around this?

Annie B Fretwell was previously Vernon, she remarried to Robert Fretwell in 1943.

Which really does seem to suggest that this is the correct marriage of parents of Peter and siblings, and that the reason why Peter was in the cottage home in 1939 was that his mother had left Marriages

Dec 1918 (>99%)

Gee Annie B Vernon W.Derby 8b 961 Scan available - click to view
Vernon George H H Gee W.Derby 8b 961

Mary Why do we think George Hancock born 1893 in Walton Liverpool changed his name to Vernon ?

Did George Henry Hancock or Vernon? ever marry to have Walter and Peter Vernon ?

I think she was Annie Beatrice Gee born 1896 , ties in with the death of Annie B Fretwell ( her second married name ) died in Yorks. Possible one of her children was the informant? EDIT her probate is recorded 1981 on https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

First name(s) ANNIE BEATRICE
Last name FRETWELL
Gender Female
Birth day 8
Birth month 6
Birth year 1896
Age -
Death quarter 1
Death year 1981
District Halifax
County Yorkshire
Volume 4
Page 1102

husband

First name(s) ROBERT WALTER
Last name FRETWELL
Gender Male
Birth day 7
Birth month 1
Birth year 1909
Age -
Death quarter 4
Death year 1980
District Halifax
County Yorkshire
Volume 4
Page 0913

Previously posted by ArgyllGran "There were 6 Vernon/Gee births in West Derby 1919 - 1933."

One of these was Sidney who was in Liverpool in 1939

101 Shaw Street, Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England

Sidney Vernon 1922 09 Jul 1922 Male Apprentice Plumber Single 2 19

Also Robert H living with the Dobbs family at 6 Worcester Avenue, Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England

Robert H Vernon 1919 25 Nov 1919 Male Butchers Assistant Single 83 8

Daughter Jean born 1933 is almost certainly the closed record on the 1939 register with mother Annie B, you can see the loop of the J, even though the name is redacted.

So it looks like Annie Vernon took the one son and daughter with her when she left Liverpool .

It's confirmed from a Marriage certificate Definitely Peter Theodore Vernon born 1st April 1930.

His first born daughter was called Anne Beatrice Vernon born to an Iris Fry in 1953 so it would be a good assumption that his mother was Ann Beatrice Vernon nee Gee married to George Henry Hancock - Vernon in December 1918. We don't know why Hancock changed his name to Vernon, he may have been a deserter.

There seems to have been two brothers to Peter ( Maybe more )
John Edgar born 1921 and a Walter. born 1925

In 1939 Walter & Peter were put in a childrens home
Why ?
Not sure what happened to the parents

We were given a red herring of Emma Gee and John Thomas Vernon maybe two vernon brothers married to Gee sisters?

Karen I imagine the two boys were put in the home because their mother left, with the older son and young daughter as detailed above. Either their father George had already left the family and she couldn't cope or the new partner didn't want two young boys?

Do we have a death for her first husband - George Henry Hancock Vernon?

And why did he change his name ?

Re George H H Vernon -

it would be interesting to know who he names as his father on his marriage cert.
Also to be sure of what his middle names were, and his age and occupation.

The suggestion of a change of surname came first from the birth of a possible son (posted previously by Maddie):

Births Sep 1921 (>99%)
Hancock-Vernon John E Gee W.Derby 8b 1003
Vernon John E Gee W.Derby 8b 1003


Then Mary mentioned a tree on Ancestry which claims that George Henry's parents were George Robert Hancox and Mary Elizabeth Williams.

However, the tree gives no proof of that. I know they did marry, but whether they were George VERNON's parents or not, there's no proof offered on the tree.

Fact:
George Henry Hancox was born 1893 in West Derby (already posted)
He was still called Hancox in 1911 census.

He seems to disappear (as Hancox) after 1911.

The tree says he was living in New York in 1940, with a wife Edith:

1940 United States Federal Census
Name George Vernon
Age 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1895
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birthplace: England
Marital Status: Married
Relation to Head of House: Head
Home in 1940: New York, New York, New York
Street: West 146 Street
Inferred Residence in 1935: New York, New York, New York
Residence in 1935: Same Place New York
Citizenship: Alien
Occupation: Seaman
Industry: Ferness Line [ Furness Line on image ]
Household Members
NameAge
Name George Vernon
Name Edith Vernon - born Barbados c 1908, listed as Negro.

Fact:
there are several travel records on Ancestry showing a George Vernon, seaman (he was a baker) , sometimes listed as English, sometimes as Irish, going between the West Indies (sometimes Argentina) and NY. YOB 1893-5.

There's also one (which the tree shows), from April 1931, showing a George Vernon (seaman) arriving in Liverpool , and heading for 429 Cherry Lane, Clubmore (?), Liverpool. Country of last permanent residence: USA.

Fact:
George and Annie Vernon were living at 429 Cherry Lane 1929-30:

George Vernon
in the Liverpool, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1970
Name: George Vernon
Residence Year: 1929-1930
Street address: Cherry Lane 429
Residence Place: Lancashire, England

In 1925 he's shown at that address without Annie.



So if Annie had left George 1931-39, he certainly couldn't cope with the boys if he was at sea.
And by 1940 George apparently had a new wife Edith, in NY..


But so far I can't see any proof that George Vernon was originally Hancox.

I think you need his 1918 marriage cert for further info.


Perhaps he died in the USA.

I started this journey with very little and with ALL your help and support you have put together a jigsaw puzzle and taught me loads. Thank you.
I want to keep going and find out more about this line

One very happy bunny :)0

Just to add -

the fact that his name is given as George HH Vernon at marriage, may be proof of a sort that his name was then George Henry Hancox Vernon.

And then there's the 1921 son with name Hancox-Vernon.

As to the reason - goodness knows!

? Just a possible as birth date is right qtr


First name(s) George
Last name Hancox
Birth year 1893
Birth date 12 Jan 1893
Event year 1899
School name Northcote School
Admission year 1899
Discharge year -
Town Walton
Parent's first name(s) George
Parent's last name Hancox
Book type Admissions & Withdrawals
County Lancashire
Country England
Archive
Liverpool City Council

Marriages Jun 1892 (>99%)

Hancox George Robert W. Derby 8b 745
WILLIAMS Mary Elizabeth W. Derby 8b 745

George Robert
Last name Hancox
Name note -
Marriage year 1892
Marriage date 27 Apr 1892
Marriage place Walton on the Hill
Father's first name(s) George Robert
Father's last name Hancox (Deceased)
Spouse's first name(s) Mary Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Williams
Spouse's father's first name(s) William
Spouse's father's last name Williams (Deceased)
County Lancashire
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

Possible as he was not at home on 1911 census, he's a dock labourer

1911 Census For England & Wales
Rice Lane Walton-On-The-Hill Liverpool, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire, England


First name(s) George
Last name Hancox
Relationship Inmate
Marital status Married
Sex Male
Age 57
Birth year 1854
Birth place Salop Shrewsbury
Occupation Dock Labourer
House name -
House number -
Street Rice Lane Walton-On-The- Hill
Address Rice Lane Walton-On-The-Hill Liverpool
Parish Walton on the Hill
County Lancashire
Country England
Archive reference RG14
Registration district West Derby
Registration district number 455
Enumeration district 50
District number 50
Sub district Walton
Sub district number 4
Census reference RG14PN22406 RD455 SD4 ED50 SN9999
RG78 code number 1321
Piece number 22406
Folio -
Page -
Other household member first name(s) -
Other household member last name -
Record set 1911 Census For England & Wales
Category Census, land & surveys
Subcategory Census
Collections from Great Britain, England

ARGYL GRAN YOU ARE AMAZING !!!

Probably George 1893 again:

George Vernon
in the New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name: George Vernon
[Goerge Vernon]
Arrival Date: 31 May 1950
Birth Date: abt 1893
Age: 57
Ethnicity/ Nationality: British (English)
Port of Departure: St John, Newfoundland
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Fort Amherst (Furness Withy co Ltd)

He signed on at St John, although doesn't give his rank..


There's also a black George Vernon who was also born c1893, and a seaman, which is confusing - listed as British or English, because he was born in Belize, British Honduras.
But the one above is with Furness Withy, so probably "our" George.

Maybe ???

George Vernon
in the New York, New York, Marriage License Indexes, 1907-2018
Name: George Vernon
Gender: Male
Marriage License Date: 27 Jul 1939
Marriage License Place: Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA
Spouse: Edith P. Phillips
License Number: 10421



There's also a 1947 NY marriage of a George Vernon and an Edith Price, but I think they're a black couple - or whatever the PC term is these days.

OK so I have ordered Robert Theodore Vernons birth Certificate

George Henry & Annie Beatrice Gee Marriage certificate &

George Robert & Mary Williams Marriage Certificate - Thank you Rambling

Argyl Gran where are you getting your info from ?

It makes sense that Peter worked on the boats as a trimmer and was recorded to go to New York at least twice.

Did George and Edith Have children

Do we have a death for George ?

I have no idea why he states Irish sometimes and English sometimes

All the census and travel info is from Ancestry.
Also the possible marriage in 1939.

I don't see any sign of Edith after 1940 (nor before 1939) , nor definitely of George apart from the possible 1950 crew list. No apparent records of children. No death of George.

His death (if in the US ) may have been too recent to be shown online.


Re the Irish or English question - he probably wouldn't have stated "Irish" himself. Probably some US clerk thought his Liverpool accent sounded Irish.
US censuses, for example, often seem pretty random about the nationality they allocate to British people living in the US. Irish/Scottish/English/British seem interchangeable.


Afterthought -

Interesting, though. Your original family info was that "Jack" may have been Irish.
Maybe he sometimes told people he was Irish? Maybe something to do with the name change - putting people off the scent of who he really was - if indeed he was hiding anything!

Just long shot, as there were several George Vernons born c1893, including a George Edward Vernon born West Derby 1892, and a George Vernon born Stockport 1893.
Ancestry suggests this death below is that of George Edward.

But their suggestions are not always right .
Maybe "our" George returned to the UK???

George Vernon
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: George Vernon
Death Age: 69
Birth Date: abt 1893
Registration Date: Jan 1962
[Feb 1962]
[Mar 1962]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Liverpool South
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 670