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From a document just uncovered by further research, this woman appears to have gone to New York from the UK.

Her maiden name is PAUL and she was born c.1870+/- but don't know where. Her first name is variously spelled ALICE, ALICIA, ELISE depending on whether the document is in English or German.

We know that she married in 1893 in London to Joseph MATSEDER; her father's name is recorded as JOHN PAUL on the marriage certificate, not recorded whether alive or not at the time but presumably alive since no 'deceased'. Please don't do any research on Joseph Matseder - he is my cousin's grandfather and we have all details about him [for the record here, she is not my cousin's grandmother and they do not appear to have had any children]. We wouldn't want you to waste your precious time on that!

We have never been able to trace her after the marriage. However, this recent document written in German and in connection with his death in 1950 in Munich mentions her name and their marriage in London and it is spelled ELISE. The words "in New York" are written after the entry. Joseph was interned on the Isle of Man during WWI and was repatriated to Germany after the war. It is interesting that her name and their marriage are recorded some 30 years after he returned to Germany. He must, therefore, have given this information about his marriage to someone in Munich before he died.

My apologies that both her first and last names aren't consistent but I am really hoping that someone somewhere may find something about her movements.

Thank you in advance.

But he seems to have married a different lady in 1893 according to trees on ancestry

Or were they just not married
.


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Name: Joseph Matseder
Age in 1911: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Resident, Germany
Civil Parish: Mortlake
Search Photos: Search for 'Mortlake' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: 68 Palewell Park, East Sheen, Mortlake
Marital status: Married
Estimated Marriage Year: 1896
Occupation: Ladies Tailor
Registration district: Richmond
Registration District Number: 41
Sub-registration district: Mortlake
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Piece: 3615
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Matseder 41
Emily Kate Matseder 35
Eleanor Gay Matseder 14
Elsie Kate Matseder 12
Marjory Ethel Matseder 7
Constance Enid Matseder 4
Winifred Norah Babette Matseder 9/12

But was it they had parted and he took another partner but wasn’t married to Emily

Marriages Mar 1893
Matseder Joseph Westminster 1a 758
Paul Alicia Neill Westminster 1a 758

He must have taken up with Emily gibbons fairly soon after the marrriage

Eleanor Gay Matseder
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 Oct 1896
Baptism Place: South Kensington St Luke, Kensington and Chelsea, England
Father: Joseph Matseder
Mother: Emily Kate Matseder
Register Type: Parish Registers

And was still in the same area

.??

Alicia Paul
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 12 Jul 1871
Birth Place: Tyrone, Ireland
Father: John Paul
Mother: Annie Odonnell
FHL Film Number: 255825


Alicia Paul
Date of Registration: 1871
Registration district: Cookstown
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 11
Page: 505
FHL Film Number: 101048


Name: John Paul
Date of Registration: 1870
Registration district: Coleraine, Ireland
Volume: 11
Page Number: 561
FHL Film Number: 101251
Records on Page:
Name
Annie O'DonnelL
John Paul


Maybe she went back to Ireland

Shirley, you're spot on! He didn't marry Emily because he wasn't free to do so. Quite a scandal because the actual marriage to Alicia/Elise was only revealed as I started to research on behalf of cousins.

BIG thank you for the details about Alicia's birth and her parents' marriage. Can I order these documents easily?

Thank you :-)

I've gone back to the German documents we have [see my first post] and scrutinised them again with a magnifying glass - and in amongst the handwriting on the official documents is written "Co/County Cork". Well I never!

So Joseph has obviously told someone [we don't know who but are hoping that a Probate/Will may be forthcoming which could help] about his marriage in 1893 and has kept the details close to his heart for all those many years throughout his capture in London for being an 'Alien', sentenced to three months' hard labour for not registering with the authorities, interned on the IoM for the duration of the war, repatriated to Munich where he died in 1950.

So this must indeed be our gal, even though her husband got the Irish county wrong - but who can blame him?

Now I'm hoping that I can order her birth certificate and her parents' marriage certificate. Is this easily done for Irish documents, please?
:-)

not sure to be honest

have heard somewhere it something like Groni for northern island certs

maybe google can help

You can view and print the records from irishgenealogy.ie, free of charge.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie


The links below should take you directly to the transcriptions.


Marriage:
https://tinyurl.com/yadh67ml

Birth:
https://tinyurl.com/yakkysc5

Click on "image" below the transcribed details to see the image.

There's also a link to buy an official cert if you want that.

Thank you all, I did that and SUCCESS!!

Now, can we try to find the trail of her to New York perhaps? She may have travelled under her married name or her maiden name.

Hope so.
:-)

alicia did not have a middle name when born

Alicia Paul
Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881
:
Alicia Paul
Event Type:
Christening
Event Place:
Cookstown, Tyr, Ire
Event Place (Original):
Cookstown, Tyr, Ire
Gender:
Female
Birth Date:
12 Jul 1871
Birthplace:
Cookstown, Tyr, Ire
Father's Name:
John Paul
Mother's Name:
Annie Odonnell

The name Alicia Paul / Matseder sounds very familiar. Did you have a thread about her before?

There's this previous thread loosely connected, re the Gibbons family via Emily Kate Matseder:
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1358017

But that's not the one I'm remembering. Can't find it now.
.

Well, her name did come up a long while ago now in connection with her marriage to Joseph when we were looking for HIM. But since then have totally found him and I can't find that thread either!

On their marriage cert, her full name is given as ALICIA NEILL PAUL.

Although her husband Joseph states her first name to be ELISE in the German documents, I think that this is his interpretation of her name into German. If we are to find her in any US census, I think it would be under her name of ALICIA - but she may be either under her married name there or have reverted to her maiden name.

:-)

Yes, I remember the middle name Neill.

We couldn't find her before, and I don't see any definite sign of her now.


There are one or two records for women named Alice Paul, born c1871, but always with something that doesn't fit, as her nationality here - posting just as an example::

Alice Paul
in the U.S., Border Crossings from Canada to U.S., 1895-1960
Name: Alice Paul
Gender: Female
Race/Nationality: English
Age: 45
Record Type: Manifests
Birth Date: abt 1871
Birth Country: England
Arrival Date: 24 Jun 1916
Port of Arrival: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Residence Country: Canada
Line Number: 17

Single, no occupation, Canadian citizen, nationality English - so probably not her.
Last permanent residence: Vancouver.
No NOK or friend in Canada.

Final destination: San Francisco.

I think that she probably travelled/emigrated under her married name? MATSEDER.

Could you have another look, please?

And how do I search US censuses?

????

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS9G-R63S?i=735&cc=2520237

Dear safc,

Extraordinary! As your post came in, I was already looking at that possible death for her. The dates add up and the match is so close.

The handwriting says "Sister. Mrs. W.D. Oakes. Queensland, Australia".

I've not been able to find a sister born in Ireland with the first name beginning with a 'W'. Wonder whether this is in fact a sister-in-law?

So maybe the 'in New York' on the German document is a red herring and in fact she went to South Africa. Another document on LDS says that she is buried in New Cemetery, Jo'burg but I can't find a website for that; a headstone would help.

Any thoughts, please?
:-)

safc -
is your link (which only takes me to the log-in page for FS) supposed to go to the 1901 and 1911 censuses for Joseph Matseder with his partner Emily Kate (nee Gibbons) ?
That's on the other thread (and at the start of this thread)..

But interestingly, his daughter Eleanor Gay was using the name Masters when she married. Maybe Matseder was too German at that time:

Eleanor Gay Masters
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: Eleanor Gay Masters
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1897
Marriage Date: 4 Jan 1919
Marriage Place: St Matthew, West Kensington, Hammersmith and Fulham, England
Father: Joseph Masters
Spouse: James Baird Brown
Register Type: Parish Register



Nicola -

US censuses are on Ancestry and FMP, but I can't see anything that's at all likely for Alicia/Alice/Elise under either surname.
Nothing at all for any Matseder - maybe it's very badly mistranscibed.
Or maybe (assuming she was actually there) she's living with another man and using his name.

Yes, all the Matseder girls and their mother changed their name to MASTERS after Joseph was whisked away to the IoM. Your supposition is spot on .. .

If this is her in South Africa, her DC says that she is divorced.

Does anyone know if there are divorce records available in SA, please??

What is the South African death you're looking at, please?

safc's link only took me to the log-in page for FS.