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Gibbs or Smith or what?

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date


Kuros Report 3 Mar 2021 15:04

I have Abraham Job Arnold, born in Tredegar in 1900, died 1969.

He had children William Dennis, born 1932, died about five years ago and Joyce, born in 1928 in Tredegar. Both children have the mmn Smith. There was also a half-sister, Ethel but I don't know if the children shared a mother or father.

Abraham married Harriet Gibbs in 1927. I cannot find a marriage between Abraham and anyone named Smith so it's possible that either Harriet was married before, although I imagine she was too young for that, or her mother was married more than once. The only other thing I know about Harriet is that she was one of a long line of children and one brother was called Innocent. Abraham is on the 1939 register but is on his own, although he is described as married.

Not much to go on, I know, but I'd be glad if anyone could trace Harriet for me and help me untangle this lot. I've tried Freebmd, Ancestry and Find My Past to no avail.



ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 15:12

The marriage cert would be the answer

You say Harriet would be too young to be a widow - how do you know when she was born?

How do you know about the 'half sister'?


ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 15:41

Interesting that his Will wasn't proved until 2004

First name(s) Abraham Job
Last name Arnold
Death year 1969
Death date 18 Dec 1969
Probate year 2004
Probate date 06 Jan 2004
Residence town -
Registry Cardiff
County Glamorganshire
Country Wales
Document type Grant only


ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2021 15:43

No help with Harriet, I'm afraid, but here's Joyce in 1939, with her age one year out, in case you don't have it:

>>>>>> EDIT:
No, this is the wrong child - see end of post.

Joyce A Arnold
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Joyce A Arnold [Joyce A Burchett]
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 29 Jul 1929
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 18 Council Cottages, Riddens [?]
Residence Place: Chailey, Sussex, England
Occupation: At School
Line Number: 16
Schedule Number: 107
Sub Schedule Number: 4
Enumeration District: EKGO
Borough: Chailey
Household Members Age
William J Simmonds 26 - 27/4/1913
Beatrice Simmonds 24 - 7/6/1915
Peter J Simmonds 3
Joyce A Arnold 10
[and one closed record ] - possibly William ?

Marriages Jun 1951 (>99%)
ARNOLD Joyce A BURCHETT Croydon 5g 30
BURCHETT Frederick R L ARNOLD Croydon 5g 30

Death (age still slightly wrong) :

GRO Reference: 1954 J Quarter in CROYDON Volume 05G Page 10


NO, that's probably this child, who has the same middle name as your Joyce:

GRO Reference: 1929 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 552

Your Joyce:

GRO Reference: 1928 S Quarter in BEDWELLTY Volume [ xxx ] Page [ xxx]


ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 15:48

With no clue about Harriet's birth year, finding her will be difficult, to say the least

there is NO birth for Innocent with either surname - what is your 'source'?

In Buildings Adjoining Tereto Shucknall Court, Westhide, Hereford R.D., Herefordshire, England
Harriet Arnold 27 Jul 1907 Female Hop-Picker Married 104 61

Further up the page are a family named Gibbs, but it's probably sheer concidence


ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2021 15:54

Have you found either Joyce or William in 1939 - asssuming Joyce is deceased?


Kuros Report 3 Mar 2021 15:57

I know Ethel is a half-sister from her half-brother's daughter who has supplied me with the initial information. She knows very little about her father's family hence the reason for searching. I really do think we need the marriage cert. I didn't know that about his will. Thanks for your help.



nameslessone Report 3 Mar 2021 15:57

Re the late proving of the will. My grandmother died over 40 years after her first husband, but his intestacy was mentioned in her probate papers.


ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 15:58

Marriages Mar 1951 (>99%)
ARNOLD Joyce A RILEY Bedwellty 8c 230
RILEY Thomas ARNOLD Bedwellty 8c 230

3 children...on freebmd


ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 15:58

Whose half-brother? And what was his name?

I'm guessing you're not related to these people....................


ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 16:08

Intestacy means he didn't leave a Will - not the same as late Probate of an existing document


ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2021 16:09

I think the half-brother Annie mentions is William Dennis.


ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 16:10

GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2015 in BLAENAU GWENT (833-1A) Entry Number 512970562


Kuros Report 3 Mar 2021 16:17

No, they're not related to me. I'm just trying to help out a friend. Yes, the William above is the half-brother.



ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 16:21

GRO Reference: DOR Q1/1995 in STOCKPORT (0131C) Reg C59A Entry Number 29

Advise the person concerned to get the marriage cert............if he or she wants factual info

At the moment, no-one can even guess when Harriet was born.


ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 17:05

I'm wondering if Harriet's family were gypsies - Smith and Gibbs are names which are prevalent in that community, especially if there was a child named Innocent - not that I can see ANY trace


Kuros Report 3 Mar 2021 18:06

I'd never have thought of that. Just supposing they were gypsies, would they have had to fill in census forms?



ErikaH Report 3 Mar 2021 18:38

Theoretically, yes.


ArgyllGran Report 3 Mar 2021 19:14

Where did your friend find the information about Harriet and Innocent and the "long line of children" ?

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!

Click ADD REPLY button - not this link! Report 3 Mar 2021 21:34


Joyce's middle name is Alma so that Stockport death can't be the one.

Possible she is in Ebbw Vale on electoral rolls.