Genealogy Chat

WHERE did you find that?! I couldnt find any sign of the Parrs,with parents,after 1841. The Whitfields,however,followed right thro,from 1841,right up to 1911.
That's the marriage I have down for Henry!
Father John changed his age again..he was 45 ten years previous!

Wonder if marriage of John and Betty should have had her down as Twist,and not Twiss? That would make sense,cos the visitor,Mary,could have been a grand-daughter?...edit.maybe her brothers grand-daughter,or Bettys niece?

In 1841 census,when John & Betty lived Fleet Lane.,Parr,their neighbours were William Parr.,b.c1801,coal miner.,James Parr.,b.c1796,coal miner.,James Parr.,b.c1831 and(can't make out if she belongs here or not!)Alice Taylor.,b.c1816.f.s(?)....James the younger,son of ?

Going by birth years,William and James looking likely to be Johns' brothers.
If or when I find Johns baptism,then I can check for the same parents.

The children I have for John & Elizabeth(Betty) are:-
Henry.,bapt 1st Dec.1816
William.,bapt 27th Dec 1818......buried 24th May 1822,age 3 yrs
Esther.,bapt 7th Oct 1821.....buried 14th Aug 1822,age 11 months
William.,bapt 31st Aug 1823
John.,bapt 17th Jul 1825
Margaret.,bapt 9th Dec 1827
Elizabeth.,bapt 29th Nov 1829
Thomas.,bapt 23rd Oct 1831
Mary.,bapt 6th Aug 1833.....buried 9th Apr 1843,age 9 yrs
Anne.,bapt 15th Jul 1838

Marriages I found,but not 100% yet:-
Henry to Amelia Smith,1st Jun 1846
William to Ellen Greenall,11th Nov 1849
John to Margaret Shaw,18th Dec 1853
Elizabeth to George Swift,31st May 1857
Ann to Henry Martin,24th Nov 1879(not certain bout this one,cos she would have been 41,but their witnesses were Henry Parr and Betty Parr)

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these...I won't put them on my tree till I'm certain.
There seems to be a recurring theme...Parrs were a mining family.,Whitfields were railway workers.

1861,here I come! Lol

Looks like the Thomas who was 4 in 1851 Census,was the illigitimate son of Elizabeth Parr and Peter WHITFIELD!
But she went on to marry(as I wondered on post above) George Swift,who brought up Thomas as his stepson.

Baptism: 23 May 1847 St Michael, Burtonwood, Lancashire, England
Thomas Parr - [Child] of Peter Whitfield & Elizabeth Parr, Spinster
Abode: Burtonwood
Occupation: File Cutter
Notes: Illegitimate
Baptised by: W. G. Thomas
Register: Baptisms 1842 - 1865 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 49, Entry 390
Source: LDS Film 1469048

Well, I'm confident these Parrs are your g grandad's grandparents (or was Thos gg grandad - I know you said, but I can't spot it and it doesn't really matter here). John and Betty couldn't even sign their names on their marr, so they wouldn't be filling in any census forms - the enumerator (or maybe one of their kids) would have to do that for them. If John said he was 49 in 1841, the enumerator was supposed to round that down to a mult of 5 (in fact all adult i.e., 15+ ages were supposed to be rounded down) - so to go from 49 to 60 in nearly 10 y is not too bad. Since Henry & Amelia are with them in 1851, I'm confident abt that marr too.

An interesting aside - I was quite amazed at how much formal education could take place in Sunday schools, so illiteracy in 1816 wouldn't necessarily be permanent. I was researching for another thread, specifically:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1322366
when I came across the following:
"It was also during Mr Hales's pastorate that or first
Sunday School (in conjunction with Westgate Chapel)
was formed, viz., in the year 1810, but judging from the
items of expenditure religious teaching did not take up
much time, as we find that a good deal of the money was
expended on alphabets, primers, slates, pencils, writing
books, and ink, and that not only children but grown up
men and women were instructed in elementary subjects.
In 1812 there were 250 persons "receiving instruction,"
..." [page 20]
http://www.urcyorkshire.org.uk/images/1924_church_history_1.pdf
http://www.urcyorkshire.org.uk/images/1924_church_history_2.pdf
Actually, this caused a bit of a rift in the congregation, some members feeling that not enough religious instruction was going on, and others feeling they should help the congregation in the best way they could.

My grandma was Gertrude Whitfield...
my gt g/parents were Thomas Whitfield(b.Atherton)& Annie Birchall(b.Staffordshire)..
my gt gt g/parents were John Whitfield and Margaret Parr...
my gt gt gt g/parents were Peter Whitfield and Ellen(Dumbell?)

on the Parrs..
gt gt gt g/parents were John Parr and Betty Twiss(Twist?)

thats as far as I've got,M.....can you please tell me how you are finding Parrs on Censuses?
I been on Census on A******y...no probs at all with the Whitfields,but finding Parrs is a nightmare! And finding their births is as bad! lol

Trouble is,they all marry women with same christian names,and they all call their kids the same names!

Elaine

LOL...was talking to one of my grandchildren the other day,and was showing her the family tree...she asked if there was a possibility of me being related to Henry VIII's wife,Catherine Parr?!

Trying not to laugh,I told her I didnt think she would come from a line of miners,from Lancashire!

Had a good laugh later though! Kids!

1841 Fleet Lane, Parr
ho107/516/9/28/7
James Atherton abt 1806 Farmer
Ann Atherton abt 1806
William Atherton abt 1828
Thomas Atherton abt 1830
Margaret Atherton abt 1833
James Atherton abt 1835
Samuel Atherton abt 1837
George Atherton abt 1839
--------
Margaret Swift abt 1776 F.S. [image says surname=Twiss]

ho107/516/9/29/8
William Parr abt 1801 Coal Miner
James Parr abt 1796 Coal Miner
James Parr abt 1831
--------
Alice Taylor abt 1816 F.S.

ho107/516/9/29/8-9 [Ancestry stuff up and say ho107/516/9/30/9 instead of ho107/516/9/29/9]
John Parr abt 1796 Coal Miner
Elizabeth Parr abt 1796
Henry Parr abt 1817 Coal Miner
William Parr abt 1824 Coal Miner
John Parr abt 1826 Coal Miner
Margaret Parr abt 1828
Elizabeth Parr abt 1830
Mary Parr abt 1834

ho107/516/9/29/9 --> 30/10 [Ancestry stuff up - have folio/page=30/9-->29/10]
Thomas Litter abt 1801 Coal Miner
Alice Litter abt 1806
Joseph Litter abt 1823 Coal Miner
Betty Litter abt 1826
Thomas Litter abt 1833
Martha Litter abt 1836
N K [Litter] abt 1841 [1week]
---------
Mary Whitfield abt 1821 F.S.

ho107/516/9/30/10-11 [Ancestry stuff up - have folio/page=29/10-->30/11]
Joseph Knowles abt 1806 Coal Miner
Martha Knowles abt 1806
John Knowles abt 1826 Coal Miner
Thomas Knowles abt 1826 Coal Miner [future spouse of Eliz W]
James Knowles abt 1831
Joseph Knowler abt 1837 [Ancestry transcription gone demented here - the surname is dittoed]
Ralph Knowler abt 1839 [same deal]
--------
Amelia Smith abt 1826 F.S.


Now moved on to Parr Flats Lane
ho107/516/9/32/15
John Greenough abt 1796 Coal Miner
Elizabeth Greenough abt 1796
Margaret Greenough abt 1822 F.S.
Ellen Greenough abt 1826
William Greenough abt 1828
James Greenough abt 1835

[next door]
ho107/516/9/32/15 [surname on image is clearly Twiss]
Henry Swift abt 1806 Coal Miner
Martha Swift abt 1811
Samuel Swift abt 1826 Coal Miner
Margaret Swift abt 1833
Betsy Swift abt 1836
Hugh Swift abt 1839

ED ends on opposite page ho107/516/9/33/16
The enumerator seems to always put the servants into a seperate h/h

M...i have these noted down too,and did notice,as i was going thro neighbours etc,how various surnames kept cropping up!
Seems as if there was a lot of people married within a small area,and many lived locally most of their lives.

I may sound v foolish now,but here goes!
I am very very grateful for all the information you have found me,and also where you back up my findings...BUT,(!) I have read everything you sent,time and time again,but I still do not have a clue what all the numbers,and folios are.Sorry.

Do I HAVE to know what they mean? Is that why I cant get any further than the 1851 census,for the Parrs? Am I doing something wrong?

Elaine

Henry & Amelia
1841 Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:516 Book:9 Folio:30 Page:11
[Amelia working as an F.S. in Knowles h/h on Fleet Lane]
1851 see thread
1861 Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:2753 Folio:35 Page:64
[On Fleet Lane with niece Catherine Yanny/Gunny/Young? a=10 pob=St Helens, sharing house with Wm a=37 & Ellen a=37 + Mary a=5, Ann a=3, Henry a=1, & stepson James Greenuagh? a=18 pob= Parr for all - NB Young is most likely given their marr witnesses - Elaine's post on Parr marrs suggests Greenall, but it's not exactly that]
1871 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KD6X-HZB
Head Henry Parr M 54 Parr, Lancashire
Wife Amelia Parr F 48 Parr, Lancashire
Niece Kate Young F 20 St Helens, Lancashire
Great Nephew Robert Young M 0 Parr, Lancashire
Archive Reference:RG10 Piece Number:3866 Folio:51 Page:16
[next door]
Head John Parr M 46 Parr, Lancashire
Wife Margt Parr F 43 Havannah, Lancashire
Son John Parr M 17 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Daughter Ann Parr F 15 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Son Henry Parr M 12 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Daughter Betty Parr F 10 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Son Wm Parr M 3 Fleet Lane, Lancashire
Son Richd S Parr M 0[9m] Fleet Lane, Lancashire
[NB Births Sep 1870 (>99%)
PARR Richard Shaw Prescott 8b 621 ]
[next door other side]
Head James Smith M 44 Burtonwood, Lancashire
Wife Mary Smith F 44 Parr, Lancashire
Son Edwd Smith M 17 Parr, Lancashire
Daughter Amelia Smith F 13 Parr, Lancashire
Son Daniel Smith M 10 Parr, Lancashire
Son James Smith M 7 Parr, Lancashire
Son Jacob Smith M 1 Parr, Lancashire
1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQXM-GRP
1891 Archive Reference:RG12 Piece Number:3024 Folio:118 Page:7
[Amelia a=68 widow pob=Parr;Nephews Edward Parr a=18 pob=Manchester, Thomas Parr a=16 pob=Parr]

John & Margt Parr
1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQXM-PPV

To explain to everyone what Elaine's on abt, I sent her a long list of (mostly Whitfield) census refs. I've just posted a similar list I was working on for the Parrs.

So Elaine's "BUT..." is her saying she didn't know how to use them, and I didn't really explain it well.

Looking at the last one for Amelia, the 1891.
On Ancestry, you have to do a search in the 1891 England census - if you "Show Advanced Search Options" then boxes appear for you to enter the piece/folio/page #s, so you do this and out pop the names - just the Parrs if I've got Parr in the surname box, or all the names on the page if the rest (i.e., non-census ref bits) are blank.

That's basically all there is to it, but I find it's easier to navigate between the difft years if you use the old-style search.
From Ancestry's main banner bar, select: Search - Search All Records
Just under the main banner bar, at the extreme right you get the option to "Go to Old Search" (unless you're already in the old style search mode, when you'll get the option to "Go to New Search"). So click on "Go to Old Search".
Now back to the main banner bar, and select: Search - Census and Electoral Rolls. Under the search box, there's a scrollable list headed:
Search Individual Census Records:
You can check/uncheck the "Include databases originating outside the UK" just underneath the header whatever makes sense to you, then select the 1891 England Census from the list. This takes you to that census, which has its own search box - make sure you "Show Advanced Search Options" and also that you check the "Exact matches only" box. Enter Parr, and the 1891 census ref, and do that search. (There's 3 hits: Amelia & her nephews) so get your transcriptions and images and come back to this 3 hit page - there's a thingy under the hits box that lets you set "Results per page" - pick 50 (the max). Just above the hits box, again at the left, there's a link to "All Census & Electoral Rolls Results" - click on it and it lists all the censuses with Parr hits, and the hit count - it ignores all search criteria but the name for this, but since we know we have Parrs on all the other censuses, we can just click on the census we want, enter the refs, etc.

NB in 1911, the seq # doesn't work, so there you need a name (e.g., Whitfield) and the piece # to get a hit from the list I sent.

The 1881 census refs are inside the FS links I gave.

M....you DID explain it..it isnt your fault that I couldnt follow! Takes a while for things to sink in..I have to do things over and over.
However,I am going to print out your information,so I have it there for future reference.
You have been so kind,mgnv,especially explaining it for a second time...thankyou so much.
Maybe someone else,just starting their journey of genealogy,will find this helpful too.
Elaine :-)